WC1 Valve Seats

Discussion in 'Whizzer Motorized Bicycles' started by Squeakit, Feb 18, 2008.

  1. Squeakit

    Squeakit New Member

    Just joined the forum & posted on the Introduce Yourself thread, so I guess it's OK to ask a few questions here. I have a 1998 black classic Whizzer with a defunct WC1 motor that will soon become upgraded. After riding the bike for past 2 months with all restrictors removed, the valve seats evidently loosened up, even though I wasn't pushing it all that much (30-35mph, and mostly under 30). It ran beautifully until the other day when it started missing, stalling and losing power. I thought it was ignition, and replaced the CDI module and when that didn't work, I started to order a new coil, but after reading Quentin Guenther's wealth of information posted here, I realized what was wrong. Pulled the head and intake seat was pushed up about 1/4 inch. Using the valves as guides I whacked the seats back into place with a hammer (gently) and then cleaned and lapped the valves. After this high-tech treatment I was able to get an additional 3 minutes of full power before she crapped out. Let it cool 5 minutes, and it was up and running for maybe another minute. Ordered new NE5 upgrade kit yesterday! My questions are:
    1. Is the old WC1 cylinder repairable or just scrap metal? Could new valve seats be pressed back in?
    2. Are there any parts on the WC1 (cylinder,carb,valves/valve cover etc. that can be saved as spares for the NE5?
    3. Is it OK to open up the restrictor plate on the NE5 and run it with the old WC1 exhaust baffle or a completely open pipe? I don't want to burn it up again! Sorry about the long post. Thanks in advance. Squeakit
     

  2. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    I'll try to answer your questions.
    1. From all the best info I have, the cylinder is junk. Quenton did some R&D on the WC-1 cylinders and found it cost prohibitive to try to repair.
    2. You can use some parts like the carb. I'm am going to do the upgrade myself as soon as time permits and I'm going to try the WC-1 carb. I believe the intake valve is bigger on the NE cylinder so that's not an option.
    3. Yes you can open up the restrictor but DON'T throw it away. The restrictor also protects the carb from some of the heat generated from the engine so it needs to be there. I would look into getting a new muffler insert. Not running one will not help power but will get you noticed by the police.
    Hope these answer your questions.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2008
  3. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Be careful what you ask for! I can give you more information [information overload] than can be digested in a month. First, lets talk about the WC-1 cylinder, yes it can be fixed by a guy in Ohio that I invested $1200.00 to setup a seat fix, he will charge you about $200.00 per cylinder to make it work. I can tell you his fix [cause it was my money invested], but I doubt you will invest in what ever machine he made to make it work. He presses in a special seat and has some way of pushing a small area in the seat outward at 2 locations. Another fix I read about involved drilling & taping across the block into the valve seats and installing set screws to hold the seats in place. As much as I hate to admit it, most likely I spent more money than anyone trying to solve the problem, but once I explain the issues involved you need to ask yourself "Why bother". First issue concerns the way the seats are installed on the WC-1 motor [just like some Harley Davidsons, Briggs & Stratten, etc], the seat is pressed in after the cylinder was cast. Second issue is the grade of aluminum used on the WC-1 cylinder expands very quickly if run hot. Third issue is the aluminum used on the WC-1 head also expands quickly when hot. Fourth issue concerns the small 6 MM allen head bolts. Fifth issue concerns fin area [not enough if run hot]. ETC, ETC.
    The NE cylinder has the valve seats installed during the casting process. The NE cylinder has larger fins for cooling. The NE cylinder has large 8 MM & 10 MM head bolts, The NE cylinder uses a different grade of aluminum that radiates heat better, The NE head is a different grade of aluminum and handles heat extremely well. The NE cylinder has a larger intake valve [more torque], and a shorter intake path [better throttle responce]. Once again, one must ask "Why bother" with the WC-1 cylinder. If the WC-1 is left stock it will do what it was designed to do, but modified usually leads to a new plan. Problem I had was leaving it "stock", and I wanted to go faster than 20 to 25 MPH. There are several parts worth saving and will work with the NE cylinder. Keep the valves, springs, "C" clips, and clip retainer washers [although the intake valve won't fit]. You can also use the carburetor, if you drill out the threads, increase the main jet to at least a #88, locate the clip one notch lower or center on the needle jet. The compression cover will also fit, but I like the NE version much better. Do not use the stock WC-1 muffler insert, do not run the exhaust with out an insert. Do buy a hi-flow muffler insert [ask others on this site about the importance of the insert], and they aren't expensive.
    There are several ways to upgrade to the NE, a complete kit, or use NE cylinder, NE head, NE exhaust manifold, NE copper head gasket, #2008NE cylinder base gasket, #2217 compression cover gasket, & head bolt kit. Oh by the way the NE doesn't mind going fast, and I have several motors with over 6000 rough miles each, still running like new.
    If you need prices PM me
    Quenton
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2008
  4. Squeakit

    Squeakit New Member

    Thanks guys for the timely and very informative replies. It's now obvious to me that the WC1 isn't worth the effort. Quentin, did you do all this expensive research before the NE5 upgrade was available? I'm sure glad there is a quick and easy fix to this situation now, and my old cylinder will either be used as a paperweight (?!) or thrown out. I'll save the usable parts. A couple more questions:
    1. Where to get a high flow muffler insert? Couldn't find one on the Whizzer website. I poked a few holes in my old insert when I removed the engine restrictor, but I don't know if that classifies it as "high flow" or not.
    2. If I use the NE5 valve cover with the vent in it, can I plug up the old vent on the crankcase or should I use both vents?
    3. Since I already ordered the complete kit, I'll probably just use the new carb.
    Too bad that Whizzer didn't get it right the first time. The old motor sure ran great before it died. Live and learn, I guess. Squeakit
     
  5. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Squeakit,
    I don't think the insert is listed on the Whizzer web site, but I have one of the largest Whizzer parts inventories on the east coast [including a large supply of inserts I have modified]. In fact, I also have a large selection of vintage Whizzer parts. Another important item to consider is that I give discounts to members of this site [when possible], and the majority of my prices include dicounts, or free labor to modify the parts.
    As far as modifying the original muffler insert it helps a little [very little], but at the low cost of the replacement it is a waste of time to mess with the WC-1 insert [you know "why bother"].
    The answer to your question "Quentin, did you do all this expensive research before the NE5 upgrade was available?" is; just as I found the very expensive solution, the NE was released for intial tests.
    In reference to the valve cover & vent tube [included in the NE cylinder upgrade kit], if you don't block the original oil vent system the motor will "pump" oil at higher RPMs. I have tried using both vents, and I can tell you it is a bad plan.
    When using the 22 MM carburetor in the kit it must be remembered that most if not all vendors error on the side of a "rich" motor as opposed to a "lean" motor, so most often the carburetor should be "leaned out". The needle can be raised, and or the main jet size can be reduced [early stock used a #95 main jet, and later reduced it to a #90]. Most "stock" motors will use between #84 to #88, because of the WC-1 .150" lift camshaft. When using the 22 MM carburetor on a NE motor [camshaft lift .186"] the jets usually range from #88 to #92 [my personal modifed motors use a #130].
    As far as Whizzer getting it right the first time it is important to remember the WC-1 motor in fact did perform as designed [as a slow moving moped], and only "broke" when modified. Of course, most weren't happy with the under powered WC-1 motor, and modified it for more. You are correct about the WC-1 running great before it died, because I was able to make the WC-1 exceed 60 MPH with little effort.
    Hope this information has been helpful,
    Quenton
     
  6. thament

    thament New Member

    kit

    Quiton. this is Tom from OKlahoma with the 99. I don't have permission to send PMs from thw site yet so I sent you an email requesting kit price. Looking forward to your reply.

    vr

    Tom
     
  7. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor


    OK, The 99 cylinders can be fixed.


    Have fun,
     
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