Honda/Huasheng/Titan,Lighting & Electrical System.

Discussion in 'Electrical' started by fetor56, Jan 27, 2009.

  1. fetor56

    fetor56 Guest

    Devoted specifically to the Honda GXH50 engine but i see ablolutely no reason why it won't work on the others;any suitable others.
    Use the black kill switch wire as an electrical power source as it powers 12Volt LED's.I don't know the exact voltage or current yet cos i've just noticed this.I HAD to start the engine first & then switch on the light which suggests low useable current.
    The engine can also be killed with the same black kill wire but i'm not overly keen on that,& i'm NOT aware of any OTHER wire that can be used to kill the engine.............kill suggestions anyone?
    The pic doesn't do justice to the LED's brightness because of the flash of the camera.
    P1010127.JPG
     

  2. Irish John

    Irish John Guest

    Can someone shine a light on this?

    Electrics are not my best subject so you are saying to take one wire off the black and connect to the 12v LED and another wire off the light's terminal and connect it to earth. Is there a 12v halogen car light that could be used? This renders the kill switch defunct I take it but does taking current off the motor affect it's ability to function normally I wonder?
    This might be a great breakthrough Fetor.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2009
  3. fetor56

    fetor56 Guest

    That's exactly what i'm saying....u CAN also run a LED tail-light continuously(even at start-up)
    With headlights i think u would need to start the engine then turn the lights on.
    I havn't noticed any ill-effects with using the black kill switch wire as a power source,BUT it's still early days..........start small.
     
  4. skyl4rk

    skyl4rk Guest

    You should still be able to use the kill switch, it would just bypass the light and ground out the power.

    A current regulator would be a good idea.

    http://www.instructables.com/id/Super-simple-high-power-LED-driver/

    The output is likely pulse dc. A largish capacitor in line would help smooth the voltage peaks.

    What does the voltmeter say?
     
  5. HoughMade

    HoughMade Guest

    I am watching this thread with much interest. I want to add a headlight, turn signals and a tail/brake light.

    If this works, I would like to mount a smallish SLA battery and use the black wire to charge the battery and run the lights off of the battery. If there was a discharge condition with everything on, that's OK because if I started with a fully charged battery, I imagine the charge would allow the battery to run everything for a long, long time.
     
  6. HoughMade

    HoughMade Guest

    So just thinking out loud. If the Honda is putting out pulses of DC (if its AC, of course I would add a rectifier and elminate the other diode), why couldn't I run that into an inductor (made my own once to filter alternator whine from my car stereo) to smooth it out, through a voltage regulator to keep it from going much above 14 volts, through a diode to keep 1 way flow, and into a 12 volt lead acid battery. The inductor probably would be necessary, but what could it hurt?

    So far we don't know how much power can be pulled from the kill switch wire, but even a few hundred milliamps would stretch the usable time on the battery, wouldn't it?

    I'm no electrical genius, so feel free to correct and criticize me.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2009
  7. skyl4rk

    skyl4rk Guest

    Here are some of the measurements that I would do to design a system:

    1. Measure Voltage while motor is running at idle. I do not believe that the Voltage will be AC, it will likely be pulse DC. Your meter will translate pulse DC to an average voltage.

    2. Put a diode inline and measure voltage behind the diode. It will likely be about 1.5V less than the previously measured Voltage. This is the voltage available for charging. You should measure at idle and at higher rpm, for example cruising speed rpm.

    3. Put a potentiometer in the circuit and turn it until the motor stops running (idle speed). Take the pot out of the circuit and measure the resistance. Voltage at idle divided by Resistance in ohms where the motor dies equals the maximum amount of amps you can draw before killing the motor at idle.

    With that information and an idea of what loads you want to power, one could start to design a system.

    You have the right idea about how it would be done. I don't think you will need a rectifier. An inductor would smooth out the pulse DC, as would a capacitor. What to do with voltage regulation depends on how much voltage you have to deal with, and how many amps you can draw before killing the motor.

    You may be able to use a simple zener diode voltage regulation system, or you may want a solid state voltage regulator. If the voltage is right, you may not even need any regulation.
     
  8. HoughMade

    HoughMade Guest

    Great info. Thanks!
     
  9. skyl4rk

    skyl4rk Guest

    I have a Dax Titan kit on its way, so I may be able to take some measurements soon.
     
  10. duivendyk

    duivendyk Guest

    I doubt that it is a pulsed dc signal more likely ac pulses,no inductive device is capable of such a feat without either a rectifier or a commutator, as in dc generators.Be this as it may ,LED's can run on an ac voltage provided the reverse voltage is not excessive.If you put two back to back you are on safer round since the forward voltage on one limits the reverse voltage on the other one, but each will generate light only half the time.I think that taking some measurements would be useful in designing a safe system.Sticking a diode with a voltmeter behind it gives you only limited info,you will get a series of voltage pulses which the meter will average in some fashion,it tells you nothing about the peak value which is also important to know.Assuming that you were reading a positive dc output in the first test,then as a second measurement stick a electrolytic cap (say 22 micro farad or more with a 25V rating,the value is not critical) to ground, that is the lead from the diode with the band next to it should be connected to the + side of the cap and the other side of the cap to ground. Then read the voltage again.It's probably quite a bit higher.Repeat the whole procedure including the first measurement but reverse polarities of diode& cap.You should now read voltages of the opposite polarity.It would be helpful to do it at normal running rpm and also at idle.Lastly with the engine turned off measure the resistance to ground of the black wire. This is also important to know.Be advised that LED's do NOT behave as normal linear resistors,more like crummy diodes.The current goes up exponentially and only the source resistance will limit the current and keep them from getting fried,you seem to have lucked out.If the drain on the ignition system is too high the engine would quit, which is just as well
    It would also be useful to know at what load the ignition malfunctions, but that would take a number of resistors to try, or better a variable resistor.BTW there is absolutely no harm in using the kill switch in the normal fashion.I hope you have a multimeter.One thing I forgot to mention, put a large resistor 100k or so across the cap to discharge it between measurements or else short it out before you start a measurement,the only drain on it is the Voltmeter,some of the digital ones have an 10 Megohm or higher input resistance which could conceivably result in false readings
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2009
  11. HoughMade

    HoughMade Guest

    I do have a multimeter- and I don't want to act like I am completely without knowledge (I restored a Philco Model 60 radio a few years ago including replacement of some components), but I know that many people know much more than I do- your posts prove that is true.
     
  12. Irish John

    Irish John Guest

    I read all the above first thing after getting up this morning and now I feel quite tired again. My brain has gone to porridge. What's needed is for someone with electrical expertise to also have a Honda or even an HS and to put all these fandangled components on to see if they can run a good halogen 12v car spotlight that lights up the way ahead on a moonless night in the outback. The tail light is pretty irrelevant because a battery LED does that for a very long time very well. It's the front end guys where the problem is and I doubt LEDs are good enough at todays state of technology. In a few years they will probably own the night but as of today the night belongs to Halogens and HIDs.
    All I can do is print out the above and show it to my auto electical guy and ask him what he thinks.
    BTW I have found a source for good springer forks with V-brake bosses at a very good price if anyone is interested.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2009
  13. HoughMade

    HoughMade Guest

    :detective: Count me as interested.
     
  14. duivendyk

    duivendyk Guest

    Curious, I also worked on one of those old Philcos too,my son had acquired one of these early thirties cabinet models.We got it to work OK,has a nice sound.I have problems communicating with such a diverse audience,you need to give specific fairly foolproof instructions,but not be perceived as snootily talking down to people.If you feel able to make measurements that would be great.There is a lot of EMI garbage emanating from these engines esp. the Chinese variety with their distributed ignition arrangements,twisting your meter leads& sticking a 0.1 ceramic cap with short leads directly on your VOM helps to get rid of this nasty stuff,that can really mess you up.
     
  15. HoughMade

    HoughMade Guest

    I really appreciate the detail of your posts. You are correct to not assume any specific level of knowledge.

    You mention that EMI- one place I lived several years ago, there was a guy with a Porsche 912 (yes, 912, not 911)- I could tell he was coming long before I heard the car because his unshielded ignition system screwed with my TV reception from quite a ways away.
     
  16. duivendyk

    duivendyk Guest

    Shielding for RFI like that Porsche is fairly straightforward,shielding for stray magnetic fields,produced by currents is far trickier,most people are completely clueless,conventional "shielding", putting metal around something is ineffective,the key is to minimise loop coupling and avoid using the frame as general purpose current dump.
     
  17. duivendyk

    duivendyk Guest

    Without any info to better characterise the Honda black wire output,I'm at sea regrettably, and I'm frankly reluctant to send people down the primrose path based on mere gut feelings.Based on Fetor56's experimental results it looks to me that the Honda Black Wire output has real potential, either as a direct output,or more likely to charge a battery and that a viable design ought to be possible without affecting engine performance unduly.If I get more info I feel confident I can come up with something.
    How much power does one of those halogen jobs take?
     
  18. fetor56

    fetor56 Guest

    We can't take that black wire seriously as a descent standalone power source....sure by itself it will power a small(4 led's) tail light at startup but that requires minimal power.Trying to start the engine with even the LED headlight on(suppled pic) and it won't start.....disconnect it and it will start.
    People thinking of a good beamed headlight need a battery;use the black wire as a trickle charger for that battery.Even then i'm pretty sure the battery will go flat over time.....just more time.
     
  19. duivendyk

    duivendyk Guest

    Be that as it may and one should not get carried away that this is some panacea,on the other hand an LED headlight is about the last thing I would have considered directly hooking up to a kill switch, due to its load characteristics, that it works at all gives some hope that with an intelligent design,adequate power to charge a battery might be extracted,if one desired to do so.With a small portion of nighttime riding this may be enough to be worth it.Batteries go dead and people die eventually,vanity of vanities etc,so what?.But characterizing the blackwire output is necessary in order to assess it's potential, as I have described previously.
     
  20. loquin

    loquin Active Member

    Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. The kill switch works by shorting out the primary side of the coil. The A/C pulses of electricity which would normally be stepped up in voltage a few hundred times in the coil to create the spark get shunted to ground, and no spark is created. A standard headlight, halogen headlight, etc,. has a very low electrical resistance. (12V, 55W is .04 Ohm, and even less until it heats up.) If you place a halogen headlight directly across the coil (which is what you would be doing) it would work just like a kill switch. It just sucks ALL the power away from the spark. Another way to think of it is that the magneto pickup coil is limited to a certain amount of power that it can provide. If you divert too much of it away from the spark plug, the plug won't 'spark,' and that pretty much defeats the entire purpose of the thing...

    What folks have fould out by experimentation is that with white-wire systems, you can draw away about 3 watts of power before it seriously impacts the spark - before you have to reduce your spark gap to account for the reduced spark power that's available. Someone will have to test this with the black-wire system on the 4-strokes.
    Well, the new LEDs seem to do the job just fine. A 3-watt LED is awfully bright.

    Now, what you might have to do is to decide what you can live with. Suppose you decide that you absolutely HAVE to have 6 watts of LED light. OK. What percentage of the time that you ride do you need this light? In my case, I commute to/from work. During the winter months, I would need lights about 50% of the time. If I could capture all the power from the black/white wire, and store it in a battery when I'm NOT using the light, that battery can then supplement the white/black wire at night, when the light is on. And, if I ran out of battery on an extended night run, I could always switch off one of the LEDs and run a little slower.

    This design tradeoff is what I'm looking at with my dynohub approach.
     
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