Tanaka PF-3300 performance upgrades? Or swap up to PF-4000? Feedback needed.

Discussion in '2-Stroke Engines' started by AlphaGeek, Oct 9, 2008.

  1. AlphaGeek

    AlphaGeek Member

    Gang,

    I've read hundreds of threads and probably thousands of posts on this gold mine of info we call MotoredBikes.com, but I haven't been able to find clear answers on one particular topic: the effectiveness of various performance-oriented upgrades for the Tanaka two-strokes.

    I have a very new, not-even-close-to-being-broken-in PF-3300 on a GEBE mount. I have read the multiple statements about how one should accumulate 1K+ miles on the Tanakas before considering performance mods. I'm less than 5% of the way there, but since I'm going to be racking up 35 miles/day several times per week commuting to work, it won't take me long to hit 1K miles. (On that point, I strongly endorse getting a bike computer and installing it at the same time to keep track of usage and performance -- the speedo is obviously nice, but nifty extras like a daily odo and totalized odo are a great complement to an engine kit. I got a Topeak wired unit for ~$30USD and it's an amazing value at that price.)

    I picked the PF-3300 over the PF-4000 using the logic that I was doing this to maximize savings vs. commuting in my truck, therefore the better baseline MPG of the 33cc was preferable. Now, of course, that I have actually starting playing around with my buzzbike I find that I'd love to have more power. Even though I know that the Tanaka will make more power once it's properly run in, I also believe that I will get better resale value on a nearly-new motor, so if I'm going to upgrade to the 40cc I should do it sooner rather than later.

    Also, upgrading/tweaking/hacking everything I own is a deep-seated character trait. The reader could safely assume that I'm a charter subscriber to MAKE magazine, for example. :)

    Assuming that I keep the PF-3300 through the break-in period, I'm interested in hearing about how effective various performance upgrades have proven to be for folks. Here's my list so far, please weigh in with any substantive feedback you might have on each:

    Intake upgrade 1.0: high-perf carb with velocity stack intake and high-flow filter (~$100)
    - looks good
    - how much performance gain?
    - how much MPG loss at steady cruise?
    - different results for different velocity stacks and/or filters?

    Example intake upgrade: http://www.sdminimotorsports.com/site/707069/product/blafk40
    Example carb upgrade: http://www.sdminimotorsports.com/site/707069/product/32098

    Intake upgrade 1.1: ~33cc "boost bottle" (resonator) plumbed into manifold
    - mixed reviews on benefits
    - probably not worth trying without first doing intake upgrade 1.0

    Example: http://www.sdminimotorsports.com/site/707069/product/334-7356542

    Exhaust upgrade: Expansion chamber exhaust pipe
    - proven to increase performance, but how much??
    - noise level increase -- any of these kits equal to stock muffler in SPL?
    - VERY noticeable/flashy, may draw unwelcome attention from LEOs and/or prospective thieves (could be remedied with muffler wrap, which I might elect to apply in any case to reduce burn potential and keep heat away from engine)

    Example: http://www.powerequipmentandparts.com/tanaka_power_pipes.htm


    Cost to buy a new-in-box PF-4000 assuming good resale value for the PF-3300: less than $100. By way of comparison, an upgrade pack for the 33cc with hi-perf carb, intake, and exhaust would run about $250, more than a brand-new PF-4000. (I'm not considering the Tanaka 47R because I would like to keep my setup CARB-legal, and besides, I'm not sure if the GEBE kit would last very long with a 47R driving it...:))

    To recap the key questions from above:

    Will the carb/intake upgrade for the 33cc have about the same fuel efficiency at cruising speeds, or do I give up MPG across the board for more top-end power?
    If there's an MPG decrease, how big is the hit?

    Has anyone installed one of these outrageous expansion-chamber monster exhausts and gotten the SPL (sound pressure level) down to stock-equivalent levels or lower?
    If so, what exhaust did you buy and why?

    Thanks in advance for any and all insights.

    -AG
     

  2. JemmaUK

    JemmaUK Guest

    Get the 32/33cc tanaka cart pipe - although you'll have to do a fair amount of cutting and welding.

    +2-2.5 mph on top speed

    + up to 8 mph sustainable on hill climbing - ie where you would be doing 20mph at the top of a hill before - you'd be doing 28mph with the pipe.

    The engines midrange with this is soooo much better you almost need to relearn the bike.

    It does suck petrol though when the engine is WOT.

    I have had 36-37mph out of mine with a tailwind - and it no longer bogs down when there is a headwind.

    Jemma xx
     
  3. AlphaGeek

    AlphaGeek Member

    Thanks, Jemma. I should have expected that the most effective upgrade would also be the flashiest, most noticeable change. :)

    I commuted to work on the bike for the first time today, 35 miles round trip. Interestingly enough, the motor was measurably stronger on the way home -- both cruising speed and top speed were up by 2-3mph. It's as if the morning run loosened things up enough to move it significantly along the break-in curve.

    Doesn't change anything, though. I will still want more midrange power, as I'm definitely noticing a sag in power output between 18 and 23 mph, then it picks up again.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    -AG

    PS: I was sorry to hear about your stolen bike. Any progress towards getting another one?
     
  4. JemmaUK

    JemmaUK Guest

    Its not at all flashy if you use the cart pipe - its painted matt black and cops and such would be unlikely to notice it because its not shiny or particularly obvious.

    The pipe gives alot more midrange power than the the stock engine and some more performance at top end as well. Its possible that with a tuneable carb and the pipe you would get a machine that might hit 40mph flat out with the #13 gear - faster with the #14 but with that you would lose a little bottom end.

    Some of the goped pipes are just too flashy and obvious and on such a machine are just asking for trouble.

    Jemma xx
     
  5. AlphaGeek

    AlphaGeek Member

    Jemma, the 32233 package on the page linked below is the one you're referring to, right?

    http://www.powerequipmentandparts.com/performance_packs.htm

    If that's the one, and you've installed it, what direction does the silencer/stinger end up pointing in relation to the engine cylinder? (i.e. if the cylinder points straight up at 0 degrees, what's the relative angle of the silencer?)

    I'm asking for a couple of reasons:
    * I'm planning to change my engine mount so that the engine is rotated out behind the rear wheel to accomodate a cargo rack
    * I saw the pictures of Augie's salt-flats race bike with the chrome power pipe and I thought it looked a bit silly with the stinger sticking straight up :)
    * I don't want to worry about water getting into the exhaust if I park the bike outside

    I'm not at all put off by the possibility of needing to unbolt/rotate/bolt up the engine in a different orientation, just trying to plan things out. This is especially true since I'm planning to add a secondary fuel tank (exact size/model TBD) that will connect into the small stock tank, so the usual concerns about ease of filling the little tank when mounted horizontally don't apply.

    If I get a good midrange boost from the pipe I will definitely be giving the 14t gear serious consideration.

    -AG
     
  6. JemmaUK

    JemmaUK Guest

    Nope - you are looking for the cart pipe which is matte black finish.

    To fit mine I had to have the manifold cut and rotated 90 degrees and then the upper mount plate ground off - the 'pipe' section proper was then welded up to the manifold. The silencer part was then offered up to this and mounted to a drilled hole in the U mount on the GEBE.

    http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200307091_200307091

    My motor is mounted with the cylinder horizontal towards the front of the bike with the fuel tank abaft the crankcase of the engine.

    I am actually toying with having an adaptor plate made up and a longer U mount so the engine can be fitted up in the middle of the frame with a longer seconary belt and a belt primary drive..

    This would make up an engine transmission unit with the engine first (viewed from the front), (fuel tank between engine and clutch carrier) then the GEBE clutch shell & clutch behind with a final drive to the sheave by belt as before. Its a similar idea to the early bikes with inline, but separate, engine and gearbox/clutch assm.

    It would also make for more ratios because there are 3 different gears that can be adjusted - so you could have all low ratios (PTO, transfer case, final drive) for a slow but very torquey machine, or all high #14 gear machine for a flyer or any mixture of whats available.

    Jemma xx
     
  7. augidog

    augidog Banned

    if you use the HP carby (12mm) offered by tanaka, you'll see that the stock aircleaner already has the proper bore...a few extra holes drilled into the bottom of the air-box will suffice...advice straight from dennis. but i still used a velocity stack and cone-filter to race, i doubt if it had any effect.

    the silly-looking pipe is the tanaka-branded one...made for the cart-applications...when the engine is cylinder-vertical it would fit & look ok i guess, but i've run my pf33 horizontal from brand new & didn't want to change the position...i got the pipe (accidentally) at the last minute & we didn't have time to do any fabbin' except for a quick bracket. after all, i didn't have to worry about rain on the salt lake, now did i? :p

    a neat feature (for me) is that the pipe comes with the fitting to re-install the muffler/catalyst, so i'm emmissions-happy:
    Mvc-467f.jpg

    the pipe definitely gets me thru mid-range to top-end a lot quicker, but i'm not sure it's the exact tune i need for land-speed.

    all my boost-bottle/tube tries have resulted in smoother idling & accelleration, but no extra top-end...exactly as expected.

    the pf33 is gonna impress you as very stable as it breaks-in, & you'll never feel bad about asking a premium pro-rated price. the pf40 is showing itself to be simply a HD-version of the 33, very nice...a huge plus is that there's more tweaks one can do (or buy) with a 40 than with the 32.

    right now: my broke-in 32 (HP carby/pipe) is still about 3mph faster than "cruzin's" broke-in stock 40.

    anyway, there's some info that might help. one more thing...if you really wanna get into it, try one of these: http://www.enmco.com/new/pt15.html
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2008
  8. AlphaGeek

    AlphaGeek Member

    Interesting that you picked the powerkart pipe and then had the manifold and upper mount plate reworked. Were there interference issues between the pipe and the GEBE-specific bits (i.e. the clutch assembly) prior to reorienting the manifold?

    I'd love to see pictures of your engine/pipe setup from at least 3 angles (each side & rear of bike) if it would be convenient for you to share them...

    That would be an extremely cool project, and one I'd love to see.

    -AG
     
  9. AlphaGeek

    AlphaGeek Member

    Where's the fun in sticking with the stock airbox? :) Next thing you're going to tell me is that stickers and logos have no effect on performance...

    I didn't quite understand the comment about drilling additional holes in the bottom of the airbox -- is this to accommodate a difference in bolt locations between the std and HP carb?

    Are you sure it's the powerkart pipe? The reason I ask is that your pipe has the telltale U-bend before the silencer, whereas the powerkart version has a straight pipe. I'm using the pictures on this merchant website as my reference:

    http://www.powerequipmentandparts.com/performance_packs.htm

    It hadn't occurred to me that the stock muffler has a catalyst in it, but it makes perfect sense now that I think about it.

    The downside to attaching the stock muffler/cat to the stinger is, um, WOW that looks like an ugly hack. :) Then again, if I put a pipe on mine it's going to get wrapped in insulating exhaust tape and painted hi-temp black, so having the stock muffler hanging off the end like a tumor might not be that noticeable.

    Would you say that running the pipe with silencer AND the stock muffler/cat yields sound levels comparable to stock? Or better/worse?

    Also, does the OEM muffler/cat only attach in one orientation, or can you rotate it to point the exhaust outlet in a particular direction?

    Probably not. Based on my recent indulgence in self-education on two-stroke performance tuning, I think you'll want to modify your pipe so you can vary the runner length between the exhaust manifold and the expansion chamber. The Tanaka pipe is clearly optimized to boost midrange performance, whereas for top-speed runs you'll want to move the power peak up the RPM curve. Varying the runner length will enable you to tune the arrival of the reflected pulse, which may give enough additional torque at the top end to fully exploit a 14-tooth drive gear.

    Were you able to plumb the boost bottle directly into the plastic intake manifold/spacer? It's never clear how machinable plastic parts are until you try modifying them, so I figured a spare plastic spacer was going to be a necessary prerequisite to trying a boost bottle in case the original was destroyed in the attempt.

    At this point, I think I'm going to hang onto the PF33 through a full break-in cycle and try out some of the off-the-shelf performance mods. It may be tailwind effect and/or bike computer calibration error, but I was getting indicated speed of 31mph+ on a long flat straight at sea level last week with less than 50 miles on the engine. I'm going to carefully calibrate the bike comp for precise tire rolling circumference and do some two-way runs on Monday to see what I find, but I think I've got a particularly strong pf33 now that it's starting to settle in.

    Regarding the tach/hour-meter: we should organize a group buy, given the very nice 40% discount for 10+ units and the fact that reshipment by USPS first-class mail would be inexpensive. Suggestions on how to organize this?

    -AG

    PS: Thanks for all the helpful info. It was fun looking at your pictures from the Salt Lake -- my dog (and kids) got to see it in person on our 2006 driving tour of the northwest. I mention the dog first because he decided to roll around in the stinkiest patch of fermenting salt solution he could find.
     
  10. augidog

    augidog Banned

    i thought that i was getting 35mph + outta my 32, bonneville's timing instruments set me straight on that. i get consistent 32's and a tailwind rocks my world, itellyawut.

    extra holes drilled into the bottom plate of the airbox (around the outside edge) means more flow and maintains stock appearance. hey, i'm with you, tho...and DO use plenty of stickers for peak get-go. it was amazing how much faster my "man from u.n.c.l.e" lunchbox was with a coupla STP stickers :lol:

    that's the pipe i have...maybe not "kart"? scooter/board/kart...my bad...it works on an MB, too, but obviously it needs some work on aesthetics, which wasn't a big concern for the racer. and hey, it's behind me anyway...i don't have to look at it ;)

    http://www.tanaka-usa.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=32209

    the add-on (muffler) fitting allows for 180deg rotation option, fabrication would be easy to change angles...and the whole shebang is quiet!!! unbelievably quiet...riding side-by-side with don/EHO35, i can hear his engine. but she sure does "buzz" when i accelerate!

    btw-my 32 has been pulling the 14T (almost) exclusively since new. i used the 13T once in a while to get more rpm's and hasten the break-in, but 13/14 didn't really make a difference in top-end (for me). my rider/bike GVW is up there...about 260lbs. the stock crank/porting won't give me more than 8K-r's under load. yes, we'll likely play with pipe-tuning this winter...pablo was very helpful with relevant advice during the rally, but we ran out of time to try anything this year.

    the stock intake mainfold is (like?) bakelite, can be drilled/tapped. can be drum-sanded (dremel) to 12mm from stock 10mm bore. keep in mind that we're talking about 2.14 tablespoons of displacement, noone i've seen makes a bottle that small...i use a measured-by-volume length of stout tubing instead. there's a "juice-box" available for the 40. the carby idle/bolt patterns aren't interchangeable between 32/40 without machining a new intake.

    when i get Golden Eagle PNW Co-Op going, we'll prolly make a bulk-buy & offer the ENM tach at a lower cost. anyone who has $180 & wants to jump on this one, go for it...it's a good way to make a few honest bucks.

    geographically, and geologically, i found the flats to be one hostile environment...man, i can imagine any dog finding the stinkiest stuff around for miles, too...that's what they do, eh?

    jemma: the jackshaft/secondary belt idea is a great one...ratios abound with that setup, keep us posted :)

    :cool:
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2008
  11. AlphaGeek

    AlphaGeek Member

    I recalibrated my bike comp yesterday -- in my enthusiasm and haste to get up and running I used a tire circumference from the reference table in the manual instead of actually measuring my front tire. With the 13T gear and a relatively green motor I am achieving 29.3-29.7 mph top speed on the flats. Any way you measure it, it's still faster than I can pedal-assist using the stock gearing on my Giant MTB. I may talk to the local bike shop about swapping the front crank for a road-bike unit with a larger top-gear sprocket in the 48T+ range.

    The longer throttle cable I ordered from MonsterScooterParts was not compatible with the fittings on my bike, so when I just ordered an 80-inch throttle/cable assembly from GEBE I tossed a 14T gear in the cart along with it. However, since climbing the incline on the Dumbarton bridge slowed me to 20-23mph this morning I'm not sure if I'll install the 14T permanently until I add a tuned pipe.

    Good to know that the intake manifold is machinable. I saw the cutest little carbon-fiber boost bottle for model-aircraft 2-strokes today, but when I ran the math it was only 12.2cc. Funny that the idea has made it into the R/C community with their even tinier 2-stroke motors.

    I can wait on a tach until you get the PNW Co-Op up and running. Be sure to post an announcement as the day draws near...

    -AG
     
  12. AlphaGeek

    AlphaGeek Member

    The place I linked above for the 32233 kit (pipe, carb, intake) has a limited number of 33cc kits for ~$250 shipped. Well, as of tomorrow, they'll have one less -- I placed my order for mine tonight. I figure this is the cheapest way to get most of the upgrades I'll eventually want to install on the motor proper, even if I end up holding off on some of them (i.e. the carb) until further into the break-in cycle.

    Up to 140 miles as of tonight. My rear is sore, but my new Nashbar suspension seatpost should help with that. (After seeing how incredibly long ground shipping takes with Nashbar/Performance Bike, I did not hesitate to upgrade to 2-day air on this order...)

    Upgrades ordered and in the queue for install:
    * tuned pipe with thermal wrap and stealth hi-temp paint (probably black)
    * velocity stack & filter
    * HP carb (deferred until at least 500 miles)
    * Slickasaurus tires for lower rolling resistance and better cornering
    * Topeak cargo rack and trunk/pannier bag so I don't have to get all sweaty where my backpack presses against my riding jacket :)

    This is more fun than it should be.

    -AG
     
  13. AndyT

    AndyT Member

    Tanaka 32 Upgrade Carb - Need Some Help If You Own One

    Old thread, but.....

    I have been searching around for the Tanaka 32cc upgrade carb kit. I called H and H Lawncare, and although it's listed on their site, the distributor has it on back order. GEBE doesn't have them either.

    If you own this carb kit, can you PLEASE look at the carb and let me know the part number. The number will be stamped on main carb body, near the bottom, on the side away from the adjustment screw and the fuel fittings. You can see it with the airc cleaner cover on, but removing it may help.

    The number should read WYKXXX XXX. It could also just have just numbers and read XXX XXX. The first 3 numbers you see are what is needed.

    Thanks!
     
  14. augidog

    augidog Banned

    there is "WYK" stamped on one ear, and two sets of bad eyes think we see "85-440" on the body where you said it would be.

    i've been dealing locally with www.powershopcentralia.com with great luck, and they were able to confirm by phone that "WYK 85" is a good walbro number & associated with Tanaka products, but not able to tell us any details beyond that.

    also, they say the HP carb kit is available (pending local distributor confirmation)...around $100 with shipping...tanaka pt # 32098
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2010
  15. AndyT

    AndyT Member

    Haha, I'm your age and I just use reading glasses!

    Thanks for the info bud. That is a good part number for a 12.2mm carb.

    Did you ever try the larger carb you got at one point? I have a new 13.5mm WYK-119 sitting right here, and I might just try that out. It's a WYK style and will bolt on, but I would have to modify the manifold of course. I'm going to stick with the stock exhaust.

    Dennis told me these engines are really held back by the small carb.
     
  16. augidog

    augidog Banned

    i completely agree that stock purefire engines will burn far more fuel than we can give them "off the shelf"...i guess it's the company's way of "governing" them for longer life.

    i found a wyk-85 cross-referenced with the 47cc tbl & tbc...maybe a closer look at those tanaka parts books will give you final confirmation.

    my dremel-style rotary tool has a sanding drum that easily re-sized the intake with one pass and there's room for a larger bore...if you can get the pulse-passage lined up, that 13.5's worth trying, eh? i never did try applying a 15mm to the 33, but thanks to your question and a boring winter i'm gonna have another look at the situation :devilish:

    btw-i live in my reading glasses, my vision is great but my eyes are way lazier than they used to be...too much up-close monitor time since the interbent came along...getting on the road for a spell is gonna help out in so many ways, back-to-basics & all that jazz :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2010
  17. AndyT

    AndyT Member

    I agree about these darn monitors, it's like being socked in the eyes all day long.

    Thanks for the info. I just might try the 13.5mm venturi carb. At worst it will be too big. Then I might have to do some porting! Oh my, where will it end?
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2010
  18. augidog

    augidog Banned

    it will not end...keep us posted :)
     
  19. happycheapskate

    happycheapskate Active Member

    Boost bottle on 3300, DONE

    [​IMG]
    http://motorbicycling.com/picture.php?albumid=531&pictureid=3860
    (loctite 5min epoxy or super glue gel, brass 1/4 double barb, hole just large enough to slip it into, angled toward the port as it goes into the spacer. )

    [​IMG]
    http://motorbicycling.com/picture.php?albumid=531&pictureid=3904[/IMG
    Boost bottle made from AXE spray can, 5min epoxy, and brass double 1/4 barb

    [quote="AlphaGeek, post: 164046"]Where's the fun in sticking with the stock airbox? :) Next thing you're going to tell me is that stickers and logos have no effect on performance...

    I didn't quite understand the comment about drilling additional holes in the bottom of the airbox -- is this to accommodate a difference in bolt locations between the std and HP carb?



    Are you [B]sure[/B] it's the powerkart pipe? The reason I ask is that your pipe has the telltale U-bend before the silencer, whereas the powerkart version has a straight pipe. I'm using the pictures on this merchant website as my reference:

    [url]http://www.powerequipmentandparts.com/performance_packs.htm[/url]



    It hadn't occurred to me that the stock muffler has a catalyst in it, but it makes perfect sense now that I think about it.

    The downside to attaching the stock muffler/cat to the stinger is, um, WOW that looks like an ugly hack. :) Then again, if I put a pipe on mine it's going to get wrapped in insulating exhaust tape and painted hi-temp black, so having the stock muffler hanging off the end like a tumor might not be that noticeable.

    Would you say that running the pipe with silencer AND the stock muffler/cat yields sound levels comparable to stock? Or better/worse?

    Also, does the OEM muffler/cat only attach in one orientation, or can you rotate it to point the exhaust outlet in a particular direction?



    Probably not. Based on my recent indulgence in self-education on two-stroke performance tuning, I think you'll want to modify your pipe so you can vary the runner length between the exhaust manifold and the expansion chamber. The Tanaka pipe is clearly optimized to boost midrange performance, whereas for top-speed runs you'll want to move the power peak up the RPM curve. Varying the runner length will enable you to tune the arrival of the reflected pulse, which may give enough additional torque at the top end to fully exploit a 14-tooth drive gear.



    Were you able to plumb the boost bottle directly into the plastic intake manifold/spacer? It's never clear how machinable plastic parts are until you try modifying them, so I figured a spare plastic spacer was going to be a necessary prerequisite to trying a boost bottle in case the original was destroyed in the attempt.



    At this point, I think I'm going to hang onto the PF33 through a full break-in cycle and try out some of the off-the-shelf performance mods. It may be tailwind effect and/or bike computer calibration error, but I was getting indicated speed of 31mph+ on a long flat straight at sea level last week with less than 50 miles on the engine. I'm going to carefully calibrate the bike comp for precise tire rolling circumference and do some two-way runs on Monday to see what I find, but I think I've got a particularly strong pf33 now that it's starting to settle in.

    Regarding the tach/hour-meter: we should organize a group buy, given the very nice 40% discount for 10+ units and the fact that reshipment by USPS first-class mail would be inexpensive. Suggestions on how to organize this?

    -AG

    PS: Thanks for all the helpful info. It was fun looking at your pictures from the Salt Lake -- my dog (and kids) got to see it in person on our 2006 driving tour of the northwest. I mention the dog first because he decided to roll around in the stinkiest patch of fermenting salt solution he could find.[/QUOTE]
     
  20. aaalbert

    aaalbert New Member

    I have a power/tuned pipe if you like. You can have it for $15.00 + shipping. Let me know if you need a pic.
     
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