Tucson Police Department Harassment

cactusamigo,

Let's not obscure the 'fact' that you were the one who started this rant - a rant which attempted to deface the Tucson PD and critize statutes. Of the two, well documented cases I've examined so far, BOTH were riders who had previously lost their driver's licenses. Then BOTH turned right around and got caught abusing the motor bike statutes. I side with NO ONE here, but it seems to me that prudence doesn't drive around on bald tires... then complain about flats.

papa - You are right in regard to your view of the cases in question. Actually, there were three that I know about. All three received numerous citations, and had their bikes impounded for driving at speeds of 24-25 mph. The profiles were like the individuals were cited by the same cop I have no further information on the third driver. All three had lost their drivers licenses for various reasons. An additional person told me that he was stopped for doing 24-25 mph, and released with a warning. Interesting, because he also had no drivers license. Also interesting, I have heard of no instances of individuals with drivers licenses being stopped and cited for the same types of violations. I'm sure that licensed drivers also operate exempt motorized bikes in excess of the speed limit classification. It would be interesting if others would post any police involvement in the operation of their bikes.

Yes, it doesn't look good for the ones who lost their drivers licenses to get caught abusing motorized bike statutes. My point is the penalty is rather severe for 4 - 5 mph excessive speed. Also, I don't know how the TPD Chief can justify his officers being involved in this while he is on the news media stating that budget and manpower limitations limit his officers ability to respond to serious crimes. Something wrong with his priorities when it comes to public safety. I don't see how questioning his policy can be called "defacing" the TPD.
 
"excessive speed on a MB IS a citable offence-- it's called "Operating moped without proper credentials." Exceeding the MB speed limit automatically turns your MB into a moped. Your friend called attention to himself by riding a moped in a bike lane. All citations are related to his illegal operation of a moped."

"Based on the public record of the traffic stop, he wasn't operating a moped at excessive speed, nor was he cited for operating a MB at excessive speed."

"Exactly. There is no such thing as an exempt motorized bike once the speed limitation has been violated."

RedBaronX - Your last statement sums it up exactly, and is consistent with the way the citations were written. We are now on the same page. Operation of a motorized bike at excessive speed and improper operation of a moped are actually two different issues, and can be cited separately. However, the officer chose to focus only on the moped statute, since the speed of the bike caused the bike to fall into the moped classification.

What contributes to the issue is that the transition from exempt status to moped status is a very fine line based on a barely detectable change in speed. A speed limit restriction is applied to an exempt motorized bike, but there is no speed indicating equipment requirement. To me, this is a paradox, and places an unfair burden on the operator. Perhaps, this is why the citing officer chose to avoid the motorized bike ordinance in his citations.
 
My point is the penalty is rather severe for 4 - 5 mph excessive speed. Also, I don't know how the TPD Chief can justify his officers being involved in this while he is on the news media stating that budget and manpower limitations limit his officers ability to respond to serious crimes. Something wrong with his priorities when it comes to public safety. I don't see how questioning his policy can be called "defacing" the TPD.

Your friends got caught breaking a law, albeit an excessively strict one, yet your response in your opening post was:

This type of gestapo police activity is an infringement on all of our freedoms, not just those driving motorized bikes.

By starting this thread, you didn't "question his policy", you said that the TPD is practicing "gestapo police activity" by enforcing a law on the books.

Do they have better things to do? Probably. One could say that about highway patrol and stopping people doing around 10 mph over the speed limit. But they happened to see your friends as they were doing something illegal and chose to stop them, as is their job.

What you need to realize is that the more people ignore and/or break the existing laws, the City of Tuscon might choose to tighten the laws even more, such as requiring ALL MBers to have at least a valid drivers license; or they might do like other states and require registration, insurance, and motorcycle licenses for ALL MBs, no matter the size or speed. I realize that three riders is not an "epidemic" of problem MBers, but you have no idea how many complaint calls they get, or how many people they have let off with just a warning in the recent past. Maybe those three were the "last straw" for the officer(s) who stopped them.
 
Police response times to serious crimes have increased due to "budget/manpower" restrictions. However, TPD has sufficient budget and manpower to harrass operators of motorized bikes.

During the last two weeks, three people have told me that they were stopped by TPD officers for operating their bikes at 24-25mph, had their bikes IMPOUNDED, and received numerous associated citations. In each case, these individuals had previously lost their drivers licenses for various reasons, and their motorized bikes were their only means of transportation to their jobs.

I do not advocate breaking the law, but this is absurd beyond reasonable belief. The punishment in no way fits the "crime". I think that it is immoral for the government to target and screw people who are trying to put their lives in order.

The legal speed limit for a motorized bike is 19mph. If you are caught exceeding this, you can expect to be cited for operating a moped in a bike lane, having no registration, no insurance, and no drivers license (if you do not have one). In addition, your bike will be IMPOUNDED, with a costly process to recover it.

This type of gestapo police activity is an infringement on all of our freedoms, not just those driving motorized bikes. All who read this should demand of their city council representatives that that fathead TPD police chief be held accountable for the proper allocation of his funding resources and manpower for the protection of the community. Last year, 113 TPD officers earned more than $100,000 because of "overtime". Now we have cops with so much time on their hands that they have to harrass riders of motorized bikes. Time for the citizens to kick the asses of the bureaucrats wasting taxpayers money when we are all being pinched by the current economy. I don't want cops wasting my money busting people riding bikes, motorized or not!

I've read through this entire thread. This interests me because I'll soon be joining the ranks of MB riders, and living in Texas it looks like there might not be a way to do it legally.

I'm an expert at fighting tickets because in 45 years of riding motorcycles, and motorized devises on the streets I've received about 5 bazillion traffic tickets. My first ticket was less than 2 weeks after getting my license. I've learned it's best to always fight every ticket. President Clinton taught me that if you're not a lawyer, then you're not qualified to even know if you're guilty of any crime, in the eyes of the law. That's for the judge, or jury to decide. Always assume you're Innocent. Never admit to anything to a officer, except what you're required by law (name, address, insurance, etc).

Based on my understanding of the Arizona law, this is how I would fight this action.

First of all, plead not guilty. Always ask for a jury trial. A jury trial is such a pia to the court the prosecutor and judge are likely to offer to deal, especially for a piddly violation like this. Considering what they get paid an hour, even if they win the case, the city is likely to loose money. Also I don't know about Arizona, but in Texas the jury gets to set the fine. If you end up losing, often the fine a jury will set will be a lot less than the state allows.

Your first line of defense is the officer fails to show up. It happens more often than you might think. In that case you're innocent from lack of evidence.

If that fails it looks to me like the whole case depends on whether the MB was actually travailing over the legal speed of 20 mph? or not. If it wasn't, then the perp would not be guilty of any of the other suspected violations, right?

All that is necessary is to cast a shadow of doubt on the officers testimony. Since the officer says the MB was going 24 or 25 mph, that tells me it wasn't radar. If radar then it would be exactly some stated speed. Probably the officer is estimating the speed. He's probably just picking those numbers out of his rear end because he knows from experience that's how fast they go on average, and if he said anything faster it becomes harder to prove.

Try to get the officer to admit he estimated the speed. If he says yes, ask him what percentage of time he's wrong when he estimates a speed. If he says anything other than never, you're innocent because any percentage of time means theres a shadow of a doubt. OTOH if he says he's never wrong, the jury will have to decide if it's possible for anyone to never be wrong.

If the officer says he paced you in his squad car then you're probably going to lose, but the jury may still have a surprise for the court.

Have fun, and good luck.
 
Always ask for a jury trial.
Be careful. I realize your reference is Arizona, so specific laws may or may not be applicable, but...

In Idaho, for example, if charged with an infraction, the accused does not have a right to a trial by jury. 49-1502 Idaho Code:

"49-1502.Procedure for processing infraction citations. (1) The procedure for processing an infraction citation and the trial thereon, if any, shall be the same as provided for the processing of a misdemeanor citation under rules promulgated by the supreme court, except there shall be no right to a trial by jury. An infraction is a civil public offense, but in order to insure the maximum protection of the laws to the citizens charged with having committed an infraction, the burden of proof and the rules of evidence applied to an infraction proceeding shall be those provided in a criminal trial.

I would strongly encourage diligent research, long before throwing a leg over the saddle.
 
Be careful. I realize your reference is Arizona, so specific laws may or may not be applicable, but...

In Idaho, for example, if charged with an infraction, the accused does not have a right to a trial by jury. 49-1502 Idaho Code:

"49-1502.Procedure for processing infraction citations. (1) The procedure for processing an infraction citation and the trial thereon, if any, shall be the same as provided for the processing of a misdemeanor citation under rules promulgated by the supreme court, except there shall be no right to a trial by jury. An infraction is a civil public offense, but in order to insure the maximum protection of the laws to the citizens charged with having committed an infraction, the burden of proof and the rules of evidence applied to an infraction proceeding shall be those provided in a criminal trial.

I would strongly encourage diligent research, long before throwing a leg over the saddle.

That's all so true for sure, but it doesn't change anything. They won't do anything to you for asking. Whether you have a jury trial of not only makes slight difference, because most of the time it's a technicality that Winn's the day. Jury trials help them deal harder. They'll still want to deal to avoid any trial, most of the time.

You do have to take into consideration some weird laws though. The worst thing they can do to you is make you pay the fines. Traffic courts are set up so average citizens can learn, and interact with the legal system without much cost riding on it.

Another thing I've learned is judge's will make deals with lawyers that they won't offer you. But still, I never hire a lawyer unless it's an appeal. That's about the same everywhere lol.
 
and I've never said that your friends shouldn't fight the tickets... people fight speeding tickets and other traffic violations all the time even though they know they were speeding and got caught... I'm just saying that just because they got caught, charged, and punished (bikes impounded) doesn't mean that the police are using "Gestapo tactics".
 
and I've never said that your friends shouldn't fight the tickets... people fight speeding tickets and other traffic violations all the time even though they know they were speeding and got caught... I'm just saying that just because they got caught, charged, and punished (bikes impounded) doesn't mean that the police are using "Gestapo tactics".

I would go further than that. Sure, some bullies go into the police, some police become bullies, abuse happens, but enforcing the law isn't even bullying. Never mind that this sort of "Goodwins Law' argument is, in this instance, offensive to me -- and I have no personal connection to the Holocaust! Just the concept of equating the two is offensive, and, moreover, shows the OP to be completely lacking in perspective in an almost comical fashion -- which lessens my personal reaction.

For the reality check: in my neck of the woods *all* motor bikes are *illegal*, but I know that and take the risk if I choose to ride with such an engine. Based on the frequency of seeing motorized bikes on the street, and from actually *talking* to the cops, I don't think the cops really care. As posted above, unless they receive pressure, they're more concerned with crime. Not that I haven't dealt with my share of petty cops enforcing stupid laws for their own personal reasons, or just being bullies.
 
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