Bike build perilous

Discussion in 'General Questions' started by perilous, Jan 10, 2012.

  1. perilous

    perilous Member

    Hi Guys,

    This is my second bike build now the first was way back in 2002 sadly that bike was stolen in February 2009. Unfortunately I never owned a digital camera back then so this burly mobile phone picture is the only photo I have of the old bike.

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    So many good times on that thing :evilgrin:

    At that time I kind of accepted that I no longer had enough free time to build another bike. I have now changed my mind, the bike will be based the staton crank kit which I ordered before Christmas and am now just anxiously awaiting its arrival to get started. I want to spent quite bit of time on the detail with this build and make it look as good and neat as possible.

    Here is the official before photo. :cool:

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  2. perilous

    perilous Member

    The big day finally came this week, After 3 weeks in the post customs decided that finding my awesome station components and handing them over to Australia post for delivery was a good idea.

    Unfortunately I'm incredibly busy with work right now so have barley touched touched the stuff except to make sure the engine works and the crank stuff fits. Which it does :)

    I have mapped out in my head how its all going to work, I'm going to attempt an in frame mount of the engine first. I think it can be done, if not on the back it will be.

    So excited. Hopefully this thread will get interesting soon :) All advice welcome!

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    MotorBicycleRacing likes this.
  3. perilous

    perilous Member

    Some progress photos, starting to get the crank set where I want it now,

    I decided that I wasn't comfortable with the 44tooth driven sprocket provided in the staton kit. So I spent some time machining an adapter for a 54 tooth 8mm pocket bike sprocket. I also upgraded the mounting bolts to M8 high tensile so I can apply a bit of torque to them and not have to worry anything working loose. Also you can see just how much smaller the pocket bike sprocket is.

    The Next step is to make a nice chain guard I'm going to mount that to the crank arm and make it significantly bigger than the 54tooth driven sprocket. Don't want anything to do with the engine coming in contact with any part of me :)

    One of my project goals was to create a workable hybrid I want to be able to pedal and have the engine assist as much as ride with just engine power. Using the pocket bike sprockets gives me access to shorter ratios and hence will reduce the rpm of the crank gears to comfortable pedaling cadence even at high engine speeds. I would need a dinner plate size push bike sprocket to achieve the same ratio.

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  4. perilous

    perilous Member

    A bit side tracking for a moment.

    This part of the project isn't my main focus right now but here are some photos of my gauge pods.

    I will be mounting a bike computer and analogue tach inside 2 custom fabricated gauge pods. The analogue tach is just a chepo automotive tach from ebay. I changed the resistor value for the 4 cylinder setting to 2 (not 1) as the Subaru fires on the exhaust stroke as well. As of yet the tach isn't totally acurate but fairly close I had the opportunity to test it against a digital one recently, I'm going to temporarily wire in a pot dial it into to match the digital one exactly and work from there.

    Here is a video from my first test, this is connected to a Honda gx25 was still waiting for the Subaru at that time.

    http://vimeo.com/35741440

    Here are some gauge pod photos:

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    Last edited: Feb 11, 2012
  5. perilous

    perilous Member

    Just a question, I have been studying my engine mounting options for my build tonight and have narrowed it down to 2 possibilities, but one involves mounting the staton gear box vertically clearance wise it looks plausible but havn't test fitted yet. I'm concerned about lubrication and the grease sitting in the bottom of the box, is it possible doing that could cause a problem down the track???
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2012
  6. BigBlue

    BigBlue Active Member

    Perlious,

    like your gauge pods. Are they made of aluminum or steel tubing? Ever thought of using PVC pipe and end caps? Just a thought - not being critical.

    As for mounting vertical, Staton does sell a Left Side Engine Mounted 16.01 to 1 gearbox kit that is almost vertical. See: Two Wheel Gear & Chain Drive Kits on his website. I would email him just to be sure not to void any warranty.

    Good luck,

    Chris
    AKA: BigBlue
     
  7. BigBlue

    BigBlue Active Member

    Perlious,

    like your gauge pods. Are they made of aluminum or steel tubing? Ever thought of using PVC pipe and end caps? Just a thought - not being critical.

    As for mounting vertical, Staton does sell a Left Side Engine Mounted 16.01 to 1 gearbox kit that is almost vertical. See: Two Wheel Gear & Chain Drive Kits on his website. I would email him just to be sure not to void any warranty.

    Good luck,

    Chris
    AKA: BigBlue
     
  8. perilous

    perilous Member

    Thanks Chris your advice was very helpful I decided it should be OK, seeing as I live in Australia warranty is not such an issue as postage is so expensive I would probably just figure out another way to do it if the box did blow up.

    The gauge pods are made out of steel tubing they do have a bit of weight to them, this bike is only for recreational riding so a little bit of extra weight is ok. I actually didn't consider using plastic with a nice paint job would also look good.

    Ok here we go for a big update.

    I have been finding it difficult to get any serious time on the build but have been doing what I can.

    Here is the primary engine mount, sadly it ended up being higher and further forward than I wanted but its just to wide to have it any closer to the crank. I think I still prefer this to over the back wheel.

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    And in the frame, I have some pedal extenders to resolve that clearance issue.

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    My original plan was to simply extend the output from the staton gear box, however for a number of reasons I decided to employ a lay shaft to transfer the power to the crank.

    I got these 2 17 tooth motorbike sprockets (420 chain) for $5 each, so some grinding was needed to make the chain fit.

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    The bearings are gokart wheel bearings:

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    Strong making, It not apparent in the photo because the engine is removed but I have 1 long high tensile bolt will go through this piece and the gearbox to make the drive train nice a rigid. However not done yet.

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    #%# that, I'm not taking this apart again and mounting it in the lathe, lets just rev up the Subaru and get angry with the grinder. I don't have a milling machine so I couldn't really make a splined shaft anyway the plan was always to just cover it in weld. I figured when the sprocket is worn out I'll just have to make a new shaft.

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    Chain tensioner number 1, This is just made from a *******ised derailer if you look closly it should be obvious what I have done, I ordered a proper one but I was so disappointed with it I decided this would be better.

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    One thing I'm quite upset about is that the fancy staton freewheel chain ring part is not in true it actually wobbles quite noticeably, I'm tempted to take it apart and see if I can do anything to fix it, thats one thing I'm not happy about :(

    I put the regular chain to the back wheels on just for fun and gave the motor a hit and the bike literally slingshoted it self across the garage, that really made my day engine feels really strong :)

    Seeing all the parts turning was exciting for me here is a video for those interested:

    https://vimeo.com/37887478
     
  9. perilous

    perilous Member

    First major milestone completed, the bike is rolling!!!

    I'm very pleased with how the bike runs overall, In fact its difficult to put into words just how good it felt to ride a motorised push bike once again after so long. This bike feels lighter than my old one and definitely feels more comfortable cursing at a constant speed. If anybody expresses interest I may be able to borrow a go pro and post a riding video.

    I'm pleased with my decision to shorten the gear ratios down to the crank. I can easily keep up with the pedals to give the bike some extra power to maintain speed when going uphill. I feel that I have achieved my hybrid objective here and I have a few extra usable gears. For those curious the total reduction down to the crank is 1:82. 8000Rpm in top gear = 45Kph Maximum Cruising speed is ~35Kph.

    I'm finding that shifting 2 gears at a time seems to be the most fun way to accelerate. Currently I'm taking off in mid range and selecting 1, 3, 5, 7 and then just shift to high range for more speed when I'm on the open road. So far I haven't needed low range but I haven't tackled my favorite hill climb yet either. :rolleyes7:

    I never managed to get the crank set perfectly straight but after many reassemblies its close enough now.

    So far I'm finding the clutch on the engine fairly brutal, I find I have to engage the throttle quite gently to avoid jerky take off.

    Here are a few more photos:

    Chain Tensioner:

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    My next tasks before painting are to build a custom fuel tank for it, its not going to be especially fancy haven't finalised my design yet. And to fabricate the chain covers.

    I was wondering if anybody was aware of a build thread or just some photos where somebody has either painted or sanded / polished their staton gearbox. I feel there is some room for improvement with the way it looks and want to make a decision on what to do as I prepare to detail and paint the bike.
     
  10. perilous

    perilous Member

    Bike is finished now,

    I have just completed the final task which was to restrict it to under 200watts to make it legal where I live. This has reduced my top speed by about 11Kph, I can still cruise at about 27KPH. Because of all the low gears I can still get up hills with engine power alone however patience is required, some light pedaling makes up the difference.

    In my testing I managed to break the chain supplied in the staton kit after only 3km, I replaced it with a KMC-Z510HX and don't expect any more trouble.

    As I mentioned at the start I wanted this to be a detailed build, here are a bunch of photos of what I have been upto. I don't expect to do much more with this project for quite a while except enjoy riding it, but am happy to answer any questions.

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    Secondary Drive Chain Cover:

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    Primary Drive Chain Cover:

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    Electronics Box:

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    That round circuit board drives the tacho;

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    The pref board (top-left) has a Atmel Mega8 micro controller clocked at 1Mhz running an information display, it reads 2 temperature sensors (LM335A), a low fuel float switch and measures battery voltage.

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    Information Display:

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    For those with the Subaru engine it likes to run between 50 and 60 Degrees, I'm yet to see it get hotter than 60Degrees but its uncharacteristically miserable at the moment so haven't yet had a decently warm day to see how it goes.

    Completed Bike:

    The analogue Tacho is definitely worth the investment in time for those of you who have gears. I used to have a digital Tacho on the previous bike and I didn't even worry about replacing it when it stopped working. However watching the little engine slowly creep to the red line in low gear when hill climbing and then changing up a gear, dropping 500rpm, and doing it again really makes you appreciate the mechanical side of the bike.

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  11. tom-fishing

    tom-fishing Member

    Totally wicked, I like!
     
  12. Fabian

    Fabian Well-Known Member

    I love the tricked out engineering!!!
     
  13. tigmaster

    tigmaster New Member

    Hello Perilous,You Sir have great fabrication skills!...I tend to lurk and check out the competition on this site to get more ideas...And because of that I'm never finished with My bikes!...I think Your bike is right up there with best...You be safe on that red rocket :helmet: ....Tigmaster....
     
  14. Lee_K

    Lee_K Member

    I just came across your build story and see some things that will help me. I like the black engine, I think I will paint mine like that. It never occurred to me how nice it would be to have a tach, I’m going to start looking for one. You did a really nice job, thanks for posting.
     
  15. perilous

    perilous Member

    Hi Guys,

    Thanks for all the positive comments I'm glad you like it!!!

    Just thought I would post an update.

    I have now ridden about 80Km over a couple of rides, bike has been going really well but had a few unexpected things happen. One of them very frustrating. I really like the staton gear box the sound of its straight cut gears are quite befitting.

    1. Rear wheel doesn't look like it will last forever, It wasn't perfect when I started and seems a bit worse now.

    2. I mentioned previously that the primary drive chain snapped, After some investigation I saw that the centripetal force of the chain rotating was able to over come the strength of the spring on the tensioner (which is not that strong). So at high engine speeds the chain was becoming very loose, I now think the first chain tried to jump off which caused the snap. I have improved that part of the bike now by making an adjustable guide for the driven sprocket, this also helps pre-load the automatic tensioner and seems to have solved the problem.

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    2. I brought this lithium grease from jaycar (who always seem to rip me off)

    http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=NA1015

    It took me a while to put 2 and 2 together but after applying this stuff the secondary drive chain

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    started having serious problems under load. I couldn't figure out what was going on. At light throttle it was OK but try and go any decent speed or up a hill and it would make horrible noises and send nasty shock waves through the whole drive train like when you shift gear at full throttle also the bike would jerk noticeably. I assumed that something had moved out of alignment or the tensioner wasn't strong enough. I wasted heaps and heaps of time and resorted to trying to recreate the issue in the work shop, this only served to make my brake pads smell like burning. After much messing around I thought the problem was solved but it wasn't, I managed to make it to my friends house and we spent the afternoon today working on the problem together. I would ride up and down the street and he would run next to the bike trying the video tape what was going on with the chain. It turned out at least 1/3 of the chain links were extremely stiff. I then figured out this problem started almost immediately after I put that lithium grease on. We soaked the chain in petrol and then motor oil and that cured the problem.

    Interestingly enough the other 2 chains have not had any problems, perhaps you can't use lithium grease on pocket bike chains I really don't know.

    3. Engine issue, about 5Km into a ride the engine started bellowing out blue smoke for about 5 minutes and then everything was fine again, the engine oil level did not drop noticeably after this.

    At first light the next day I tried to go on a test ride, I pedaled to a quiet road to avoid waking any body up. The engine was hard to start but I got it going but only for about 30seconds and then it died.

    It would not start again, not for love nor money or even cursing and swearing. I went back home and still would not start.

    I checked for spark it was still good. I figured it was probably really flooded and didn't like the cold so I left it for a few hours and tried again, still would not start. I then discovered that the air box had oil in it and the filter had an oily stain on it.

    At this point I removed the spark plug and found it was quite oily as well. Cleaned it up and reluctantly the engine spluttered back to life. Once it cleared it self it was perfectly happy, and has been ever since.

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    I can't quite explain that but the root cause must have been the breather. Really interested in any thoughts on this.

    To be legal where I live my Pedal Cycle with Auxillary assist motor must be limited to 200watts. I made a "unprofessional" video to demonstrate the bikes performance after making it street legal. 200watts is slow but not a deal breaker in my opinion, but low gears are an absolute must otherwise you wouldn't bother. You will notice that the engine won't pull past ~5000RPM, before it would wind up beautifully. I start off on a flat level piece of road, then slight up hill ~1:00, bottom of a hill ~2:00 and then an ascend up a moderate grade. The whole time the bike is just WOT no pedaling at all.

    http://vimeo.com/42474055
     
  16. Lee_K

    Lee_K Member

    I like the way you made all the components fit into the space you had to work with. You had to solve a bunch of problems along the way. I really like the fuel tank, what is made from, how much does it hold.

    How did you restrict the power to 200 watts (that's only 1/4 HP). What rpm do you run at cruising speed. I am thinking of using a front shifter as a throttle control and may limit the the max throttle opening to slightly lower the power output.

    Thanks
     
  17. flashstar

    flashstar Member

    Perilous, do the Australian authorities run dyno tests on motor bikes to ensure that they are at most 200 watts? I don't see how else they could say your motor is more powerful than the law allows.

    Nice build by the way! It's a shame that it's limited to 200 watts.
     
  18. perilous

    perilous Member

    Hi Lee and flash star,

    The fuel tank was a fluke and not part of the original plan, its made from a stainless steel drink bottle i found at woolworths one day I though it would be a good storage container for additional fuel. I also brought one of these on impulse for another idea I had:

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-Coyo...6447534?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item33759b5a2e

    It just happened that the fuel cap was a perfect interference fit, I sprayed the inside with this Hylomar sealant stuff that you use for head gaskets. And very gently pressed it on. I drilled a 5/8 hole in the side and reused the original grommet from the fuel tank that came with the engine.

    The fuel tank is not very big it only holds around 0.7L.

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    I'm not an expert on how the rules are enforced and would love to know more. My suspicion is that the police operate on a reasonable usage directive. In other words if you keep the speed down and do everything right you will probably be left alone but go through a speed trap at over 40Kph without pedaling and you will see red and blue. I don't think they would dyno test the bike in fact I don't know how you would accurately dyno test for 200watts. But thats just my opinion, I don't really know.

    I had a very unpleasant experience a few years back with regards to inappropriate conduct by 2 police officers. So for me I just don't want any trouble and feel much more comfortable riding the bike knowing that I'm complying to the letter of the law. Whenever I go riding I carry documentation that addresses every aspect of VSI 27 with regard to my bike and what I have done to ensure compliance.

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    In term of limiting the bike, what I did was use the following formula:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance#Power_required

    to determine the maximum speed the bike could legally travel under its own power on a level road with out any wind.

    I then used various crude methods to temporarily limit the throttle and test rode the bike until I was 10% under the limit (to allow for assumptions in my calculations). I then drilled and tapped 2 holes in the twist throttle and installed screws to limit its movement, I then filled the heads of the screws with glue "so it can't be easily tampered with". Many years ago "in my younger days :)" before motorised scooters were banned I remember looking at some in a shop that were certified 200watts and all the OEM had done was limit the throttle movement at the carb and placed a warning label on the limiting device. I'm fairly satisfied that I have limited the bike correctly because its performance is very similar to me pedaling it.

    I can PM you my spreadsheet if you want.

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    My cruising rpm is around 5000.

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    If your wondering about my weired chain issue, I spoke to some people about it and the consensus seems to be that the lithium grease must have reacted in some way with what ever lubricant was put on at the factory.
     
  19. Lee_K

    Lee_K Member

    Thanks for the detailed response. I still have a lot of work just to get my bike running, eventually I will add a larger tank and use some of your ideas. You can see how I am doing in the recumbent section.

    Where I live the law allows a maximum speed of 30 mph (48 kph). I intend to limit the throttle opening to get approximately 25 mph (40 kph) which will be about as fast as I can keep up with pedaling. At that speed the motor will be turning 4529 rpm and I will be pedaling at 82 rpm (I might have to change the gearing to speed the motor up to get closer to your 5000 rpm)

    I don’t have a front derailleur and plan on using that shifter for the throttle control. There will be a pulley to change the cable ratio. The cable adjuster on the Subaru engine can be turned in far enough to limit the max throttle position. There will be three positions: idle, about 1/3 open & about 2/3 open. When I get this running I will use the calculations you noted to see how much power the motor is producing in those settings.

    It’s good to hear from someone with your perspective.
     
  20. perilous

    perilous Member

    Before I limited the bike the top speed was 43-44Kph but on my bike I'm turning 8000rpm at 46.5KPH in top gear so it was probably just running out of legs. I suspect you may not end up needing to limit your bike, but all that's fine tuning. I am surprised by how well the Subaru engine pulls in the lower RPM's but at 4500 I would be concerned about clutch engagement. The chart I have shows the clutch only able to hold about 0.3Kw at 4500.

    I looked up the service manual and: engine max torque is at 5000RPM, clutch engagement is at 4200 - 4400rpm.

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    I found an interesting snip-pit on the subaruengines.com.au website about the EH025 and EH035 engines.

    http://www.subaruengines.com.au/faqs.cfm

    I think this puts my mind at ease with the issue I had, as it does have 10W-30 oil in it.

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    LOVE THE FORUM UPDATE, GREAT JOB GUYS!!!
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
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