How my reply was treated at flbikelaw.org

Discussion in 'General Questions' started by boyntonstu, Jan 28, 2015.

  1. boyntonstu

    boyntonstu Member

    Look here:

    http://flbikelaw.org/2015/01/motorized-bicycles-transport-and-compensation/

    See this thread:

    Stu asked: Does the Definition of a “Motor Vehicle” require it to be involved in “Transportation”?

    Chapter 320

    MOTOR VEHICLE LICENSES

    320.01 Definitions, general. As used in the Florida Statutes, except as otherwise provided, the term:

    (1) “Motor vehicle” means:

    (a) An automobile, motorcycle, truck, trailer, semitrailer, truck tractor and semitrailer combination, or any other vehicle operated on the roads of this state, used to transport persons or property, and propelled by power other than muscular power,

    What does “transport persons or property” mean? Do you transport persons or property on a motorized bicycle? f yes, your motorized bicycle is a “Motor Vehicle” and the Statute requires registration for it and licensing for you. This is very clear.

    But what if your motorized bicycle does not transport persons or property?

    Does it need to be registered? If you say yes, why? What does transport mean?

    An example: Abstract: —Any motor vehicle designed for carrying more than 10 passengers and used for the transportation of persons and any motor vehicle, other than a taxicab, designed and used for the transportation of persons for compensation. —Any person who drives or is in actual physical control of a vehicle on a highway or who is exercising control of a vehicle or steering a vehicle being towed by a motor vehicle. —Any person who is in actual physical control of a motor vehicle upon the highway, or who is …

    When you operate your motorized bicycle are you compensated?

    Under the Statutes does a motorized bicycle qualify as a “Motor Vehicle” ?

    If a motorized bicycle is not considered to be a “Motor Vehicle” how does RS68 apply? RS-68 assumes that a motorized bicycle is being used to transport for compensation.
    Answer

    I can find no definition of “transport” in the applicable statutes. Hence, we need to use the common usage definition.

    Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary

    Transport – To carry, move or convey from one place to another.

    The operator of a bicycle or motorized bicycle is being transported from one place to another whether by human or motor power.

    Your quote above confuses a number of other definitions from s. 316 and s. 320.

    s. 316.003 – Definitions. (For the purpose of traffic law)

    (3) Bus – Any motor vehicle designed for carrying more than 10 passengers and used for the transportation of persons and any motor vehicle, other than a taxicab, designed and used for the transportation of persons for compensation.

    (10) Driver – Any person who drives or is in actual physical control of a vehicle on a highway or who is exercising control of a vehicle or steering a vehicle being towed by a motor vehicle.

    s.320.01 – Definitions (For the purpose of vehicle registration)

    (15)(a) “For-hire vehicle” means any motor vehicle, when used for transporting persons or goods for compensation; let or rented to another for consideration ….

    Your concern about compensation is related to the definition above of “bus” in 316 and “for hire vehicle” in 320 and has no applicability to motorized bicycles.

    I can find nothing in RS – 68 that refers to compensation related to bicycles, motorized bicycles or mopeds.

    http://www3.flhsmv.gov/dmv/Proc/RS/RS-68.pdf

    A motorized bicycle is not a motor vehicle if it meets the statutory definition of “bicycle”. Legally, it is a bicycle.

    s. 316.003 – Definitions

    (2) Bicycle – Every vehicle propelled solely by human power, and every motorized bicycle propelled by a combination of human power and an electric helper motor capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of not more than 20 miles per hour on level ground upon which any person may ride ….

    In your 320 definition above, you left out the part of the 320 definition of motor vehicle the excludes bicycles from the definition:

    …. but the term does not include …. bicycles …..

    A bicycle equipped with a gas motor does not meet the statutory definition of “bicycle”. It is a motor vehicle and cannot be registered unless it meets the definition of moped. Otherwise, it is an unregistered motor vehicle, not a bicycle.



    NE2 says:
    January 26, 2015 at 7:13 PM

    So are you allowed to jog alongside a remote-controlled gas-powered trike with nobody on the saddle? :)
    Reply
    Boyntonstu says:
    January 27, 2015 at 10:28 AM

    Are you a carrier involved in transportation? If you are, the Statute requires Registration and Licensing. You become a Driver, a commercial designation.
    Is a road roller a Motor Vehicle?

    Imagine that you are on a motorized bicycle riding alongside a motor roller.

    Both unlicensed non Motor Vehicles.

    Pretty amusing if you ask me.

    For legal definitions, I recommend legal sources:

    http://thelawdictionary.org/transportation/

    What is TRANSPORTATION?

    The removal of goods or persons from one place to another, by a carrier. See Railroad Co. v. Pratt, 22 Wall. 133, 22 L. Ed. 827; Interstate Commerce Coin’n v. Brimson, 154 U. S. 4 17. 14 Sup. Ct. 1125, 38 L. Ed. .1047; Gloucester Ferry Co. v. Pennsylvania, 114 U. S. 100, 5 Sup. Ct. S26, 29 L. Ed. 158. In criminal law. A species of punishment consisting in removing the criminal from his own country to another, (usually a penal colony.) there to remain in exile for a prescribed period. Fong Yue Ting v. U. S., 149 U. S. 698, 13 Sup. Ct. 1016, 37 L. Ed. 005

    Law Dictionary: What is TRANSPORTATION? definition of TRANSPORTATION (Black’s Law Dictionary)
    Reply
    SameOleArgument says:
    January 27, 2015 at 12:46 PM

    Geo,
    From what I can tell, it looks like Boyntonstu is trying to use the “right to travel” argument…

    I believe the bullet points in his (right to travel) arguments are…
    (I’m paraphrasing a bit, but it gives you the general idea.)

    1.) Motor Vehicles (according to Black’s Law dictionary) employ a driver to transport persons.

    2a.) Transport (according to Black’s Law dictionary) means to move persons for compensation.

    2b.) Driver (according to Black’s Law dictionary) means to be engaged in commerce while transporting persons.

    3.) If you’re not engaged in “commerce” then you’re not (a driver) driving a motor vehicle.

    This is the same argument that all right to travel proponents use.

    Whether it has legal standing or not, is the issue, I believe, he wants to address.
    Reply
    Boyntonstu says:
    January 27, 2015 at 1:05 PM

    I am addressing what the Law is actually stating. For sure, dictionary definitions are not allowed in the Court. In Statutes and the IRS Code we see something like: “For the purpose of this section XYZ means….”

    Therefore, for the purpose of defining a “Motor Vehicle”, it must be used in transportation, which has a specific legal definition. If we use Webster’s Dictionary, we will find:

    Full Definition of ROAD GRADER:
    A wheeled device having a long inclined vertically adjustable steel blade used to throw earth and other surface material from the side to the center of a road.

    I would guess that most people would call a engine driven wheeled device that weighs thousands of pounds a “motor vehicle”. They would be incorrect by dictionary and by Florida Statute definitions.

    Interesting!
    Reply
    Geo says:
    January 27, 2015 at 3:39 PM

    As I frequently state. I am not an attorney and on this site we do not give legal advice.

    I do appreciate the comments and participation by attorneys, but we are not in court trying to win cases. We are trying to get the average cyclist, motorist, law enforcement officer and even attorney to just read the laws and become familiar with the situations they confront all the time.

    I started this website when I was working with law enforcement and became aware of the lack of easily understood sources of information about the laws related to cycling.

    If we can get officers to stop enforcing laws that don’t exist, such as “You can’t ride in the roadways. You must use the sidewalk”, motorists to understand that cyclists have the same rights and duties as other drivers, cyclists to understand the same, and attorneys to at least read the laws, I will be happy, even overjoyed.

    Attorneys can nitpick the legality of the information on the site, and I welcome that. However, the vast majority of our readers will gain nothing from this string of comments, and probably won’t even read it. Take a look at the questions that are frequently asked and you will see the level of the majority of our readers, which I believe represents the general population.

    Cyclists can use the information to ride more safely. Law enforcement officers will enforce the statutes they believe to be correct. Motorists will gain a better understanding of what cyclists are doing and why. Attorneys can learn the basic laws which, based on my experience with them as relates to bicycling, are apparently not taught in law school.

    Given that, I welcome your interpretation of the definitions in s. 316.003 that are used by law enforcement in their duties, should guide cyclists in their use of the highways and should be used by attorneys and court officials. Please note that there is no mention of carrier and that transportation is defined for the purpose of this section, that is, traffic law.

    s. 316.003 – Definitions – The following words and phrases, when used in this chapter, shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this section, except where the context otherwise requires:

    (21) Motor Vehicle – …. a self-propelled vehicle not operated upon rails or guideway, but not including any bicycle, motorized scooter, electric personal assistive mobility device, swamp buggy, or moped…..

    (75) Vehicle – Every device, in, upon, or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, excepting devices used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks.

    (74) Transportation – The conveyance or movement of goods, materials, livestock, or persons from one location to another on any road, street, or highway open to travel by the public.
    Reply
    Boyntonstu says:
    January 27, 2015 at 4:24 PM

    I agree with your philosophy.

    Since you stated: “welcome your interpretation of the definitions in s. 316.003 that are used by law enforcement in their duties, should guide cyclists in their use of the highways and should be used by attorneys and court officials.”

    (21) MOTOR VEHICLE.—Except when used in s. 316.1001, a self-propelled vehicle not operated upon rails or guideway, but not including any bicycle, motorized scooter, electric personal assistive mobility device, swamp buggy, or moped. For purposes of s. 316.1001, “motor vehicle” has the same meaning as in s. 320.01(1)(a).

    The last sentence gives the definition of Motor Vehicle back to 320.01(1)(a)

    IOW s. 316.1001 is inferior to 320.01(1)(a) which must legally prevail.

    In the legal world (Court) I do not go along with the practice of average cyclists, motorists, or law enforcement officers to use use dictionary definitions instead of legal definitions. Try it in Court and you will hear a strong “objection”.

    After reading the Statutes, I conclude that “Motor Vehicle” and transportation are legally and inexorably linked.

    Does the State of Florida require that devices not classified as Motor Vehicles be registered?

    Do you agree that a 5,000 lb road grader may be on the road without a Motor Vehicle registration and operated by someone without a Drivers license?
    Reply
    Geo says:
    January 27, 2015 at 4:42 PM

    NE2,
    No. A certified operator must be present n the vehicle.
    316.86 Operation of vehicles equipped with autonomous technology on roads for testing purposes; financial responsibility; exemption from liability for manufacturer when third party converts vehicle.—
    (1) Vehicles equipped with autonomous technology may be operated on roads in this state by employees, contractors, or other persons designated by manufacturers of autonomous technology, or by research organizations associated with accredited educational institutions, for the purpose of testing the technology. For testing purposes, a human operator shall be present in the autonomous vehicle such that he or she has the ability to monitor the vehicle’s performance and intervene, if necessary, unless the vehicle is being tested or demonstrated on a closed course. Before the start of testing in this state, the entity performing the testing must submit to the department an instrument of insurance, surety bond, or proof of self-insurance acceptable to the department in the amount of $5 million.
    (2) The original manufacturer of a vehicle converted by a third party into an autonomous vehicle shall not be liable in, and shall have a defense to and be dismissed from, any legal action brought against the original manufacturer by any person injured due to an alleged vehicle defect caused by the conversion of the vehicle, or by equipment installed by the converter, unless the alleged defect was present in the vehicle as originally manufactured.
    Reply

    I submitted this reply twice and it was removed:

    "Is the certified road grader operator required to have a Drivers license".

    A simple straightforward question that was submitted twice and deleted. (I saw that it was posted)

    Note too that when "Transportation" was the issue, Geo offers a dictionary definition, not the Court accepted legal definition.

    This little interaction demonstrates how unfairly one is treated for asking logical questions to arrive at the truth.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2015

  2. boyntonstu

    boyntonstu Member

    What does transport mean in general purpose dictionaries?


    take or carry (people or goods) from one place to another by means of a vehicle, aircraft, or ship.
    "the bulk of freight traffic was transported by truck"
    synonyms: convey, carry, take, transfer, move, shift, send, deliver, bear, ship, ferry, haul;
    informalcart
    "barges transport the lumber from the mill"

    Is there any example above not in commerce?

    If you carry groceries home from the supermarket are you transporting?

    Can you transport yourself?

    How the Commerce clause of the U.S. Constitution uses the word "transport"?

    "Commerce begins with the physical transport of the product or person and ends when either reaches the destination."

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Interstate+commerce+clause
     
  3. troyg

    troyg Member

    I'm having a hard time understanding your purpose with these rants.Are you trying to
    accomplish something, or just venting?If it's the latter I suggest starting a blog, as
    they don't seem to be much help or informative for the general MAB'er.
     
  4. boyntonstu

    boyntonstu Member

    Do you understand the Statute on motorized vehicles?

    Can you explain how a motorized bicycle is used in commerce?

    If not in used in transport commerce, Motor Vehicle registration and Driver licensing is not required by the words in the Statute.

    Some folks are upset enough that they are selling their MB's.

    Do you agree that understanding the Statute is important?
     
  5. troyg

    troyg Member

    Are you a lawyer, or a politician.I asked what you hoped to accomplish with your rants,... and you answer that with a question, politician like.

    I don't care about how an MAB is used in commerce (I bet a bunch here don't either)

    If your state says you need a license, you need a license, don't like it MOVE.

    Yes understanding things is important, as far as I can tell you are just as confused.

    Things change,... not always for the better,... pendulums swing, they are swinging toward more fear and less freedoms, unless you're willing to stand in front of a running tank, you're blowing steam, WASTING TIME.
    You are old (like me) your time is basically over, enjoy what time you have left.
     
  6. boyntonstu

    boyntonstu Member

    I agree with you. What thing changed?

    Look at what the Florida Statute says. Please indicate how a MB can switch from being a bicycle into a must be registered commercial Motor Vehicle?

    The statute does NOT say it. Period.

    Do you still believe that a Motorcycle has a motor?

    In my engine vs motor thread, it was suggested that I should be banned for even bringing up the notion.

    After all the back and forth, I was proven to be correct and I accomplished my goal to educate, not rant.

    At the Indianapolis 500 race, they quit using the erroneous phrase "Gentlemen start your motors".

    Motor is not consistent with gas engine.

    Again, in this case, we must be precise to be legal.

    In order for any vehicle to be required to be registered and operated by a licensed Driver, it must be in commerce where it becomes a "Motor Vehicle". That is exactly what the Statute says, nothing more and nothing less.

    Do road rollers require registration? A farm tractor? Are they motor vehicles? The Statute specifically excludes them from registration and from requiring the operator to be a licensed Driver.

    See how Geo ignored my simple question and refused to answer.

    Is your MB a Motor Vehicle used in commerce?
     
  7. dougsr.874

    dougsr.874 Active Member

    To Boytonstu....I will not read nor reply to any more of your rants....ok, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
     
    boyntonstu likes this.
  8. troyg

    troyg Member

    First, yes I make money riding my bike, but I live where they don't care, so no sweat here.

    OK, last time I try to help reach you.
    There was life, and humans and america before you were born, there will be after you are dead,

    At some point in FL "WAY BACK" there probably was no need for registration/insurance/title/license,
    because people were just starting to make the horseless carriage.There's the change you have no control over.
    There weren't as many people, so few complaints.Time passes things change, not always for the better.

    Fast forward, you think your plight is profound or different from the first people having to jump governmental hoops, in some way
    thinking you have a say in what's been set up before you were born.
    It's a drag, but that's the cases, get over it.It's still free enough a country that you could move if you feel so oppressed,
    but my guess is you say "I love FL, the weather is so nice, my family is here, blah blah blah" well you pay for that niceness
    by dealing with many MANY others, and because of the closeness of backyards, you have to live by what they think and feel
    not just your concerns, that's one of the many costs of living with all the comforts city life brings.So maybe FL ain't so nice.

    Your real quarrel (as should be with all humans) is overpopulation, rant on birth control if you want to help further generations,
    as that's the only thing that's going to help anyone, anywhere.

    You complain about a possible loophole, but are selling and going electric, so no conviction just words.If you really meant
    and believed your tirade posts, you'd ride, get arrested, and REPEAT causing a BIG STINK every time.Are you going to do that,...
    NO,... so please just stew silently as it's too late, and you're not moving.



    You are an ant yelling at the rain, expecting results.
     
    boyntonstu likes this.
  9. boyntonstu

    boyntonstu Member

    Show me the Statute or step back.
     
  10. troyg

    troyg Member

    Wow, you're a goner.I think you may be more upset about your own rolling over.
    My analysis: You are one of the many, that followed rules, worked a soul sucking job for decades, retired, woke up to the world around you, realized it wasn't what you slaved for all those years (in ideals), don't like what things have become, don't like how systems have grown too big to be useful,... but not so much that you did anything about it while slaving, or will do about it now.
    You signed up for a padded, velvet lined barrel, worked all those years for it, now you are going to lay over it and take it like a good boy,
    but not without complaining a little.Stepping back.
    Back to the rants,...
     
    boyntonstu likes this.
  11. butre

    butre Well-Known Member

    income tax and gun control are both completely illegal, but you won't see any court side with the people on those issues. there's no such thing as a battle not worth fighting, but there is such thing as one you can't win.
    besides that, you're preaching to the choir here, a huge chunk of motorized bike riders are part of the right to travel crowd
     
  12. Fly1

    Fly1 Member

    (Quote, what you hoped to accomplish with your rants) I must agree, you accomplish nothing
    posting such here. You have to much time on your hands. Go do something productive, please.

    Fly
     
  13. boyntonstu

    boyntonstu Member

    I am not part of RTT.

    I obey all laws as written.

    Today, I rode behind a farm vehicle going about 15 mph for several miles.

    No tag, no Drivers license.

    It is the Law.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2015
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