official MBc stance on EPA?

[uncle_punk13]

Wow. Thanks; I was just speaking my mind and from the spirit...

 

[augidog]

the next step?

after a warm welcome at the track, and much learned to pass on to others, i'm at a place where i'm ready to try something...

MBRA "C"-Classes are now open to confirmed 48cc or less HT's, single-speed.

a lesson i learned right off the bat (stay with me on this one, large, i know it's not always clear why i'm so picky about some things)...utah doesn't seem (to me) to have a direct definition of gas-assisted bicycle as a motor-vehicle, so i deferred to the fed. specs, and so did the usfra!! 48cc or under/single speed...no license...he shoots, he scores!!!

now, let's not kid ourselves, i still do have an agenda that involves labeling and certification, but i think just maybe if the MBRA can help expose some solid examples of all the drive options, i may just get to my (personal) goals without a lot of sweatin', and just a lot of racin'

so, if someone wants to get a 48cc HT team together, or any other MB-drive, homebuilt too, that meets the generic fed text, join MBRA and let's make sure we continue to present a responsible image to the motorsporting world. i'll be opening a Q&A about my experiences at bonneville over at MBRA if anyone's interested.

this will lead to tons of improvements to all the various drives available, & i'm willing to give it time

 

[arceeguy]

.....now, let's not kid ourselves, i still do have an agenda that involves labeling and certification, but i think just maybe if the MBRA can help expose some solid examples of all the drive options, i may just get to my (personal) goals without a lot of sweatin', and just a lot of racin' ....

How does racing help get all Happy Time kits certified and labeled?

Out of the three kits I bought, one had an EPA certification label and two didn't. The difference was the muffler. One had a catalyst, the other two didn't. Now that I know, I will continue to buy the cat equipped engines for future builds.

 

[augidog]

i couldn't care less about all HT's...i just wanna see the advent of a quality 48cc version. the labeling is a logical step, fair-trade must be brought back into play if we wanna save this economy.

pretty inflammatory sig you're sporting, another fine example of how this society's sensitivities can cloud an issue. no matter where the HT industry was based, i wouldn't be happy with it as it is. the current market doesn't help chinese (or american) poor, it helps the middlemen.

so, anyways...i was sayin' that if someone put together a 48cc HT that could compete with other 48cc-or-under MB-options, then we'd be lookin' at something. i'm willing to compromise and try to help make that happen, so save your "reverse racism" for someone who deserves it.

 

[augidog]

that label can be equated with many factors, good stuff, too...it's documented fair-trade, it's a declaration of quality that requires backing. it's major good for our economy for us to begin to assert ourselves once again. those astute enuff to be paying attention to how potentially important our mb-future is realize how lightly but determinedly we have to tread. some rules are already in play, no fighting them. some will be put into play as political certainties...let's be ready with sound offerings to keep everyone happy.

the label can be a powerful political weapon should we need to defend ourselves, which we eventually will...i suggest we follow a strategy now of taking away all their reasons to hassle us then.

 

[arceeguy]

i couldn't care less about all HT's...i just wanna see the advent of a quality 48cc version. the labeling is a logical step, fair-trade must be brought back into play if we wanna save this economy.

pretty inflammatory sig you're sporting, another fine example of how this society's sensitivities can cloud an issue. no matter where the HT industry was based, i wouldn't be happy with it as it is. the current market doesn't help chinese (or american) poor, it helps the middlemen.

so, anyways...i was sayin' that if someone put together a 48cc HT that could compete with other 48cc-or-under MB-options, then we'd be lookin' at something. i'm willing to compromise and try to help make that happen, so save your "reverse racism" for someone who deserves it.

I don't see my sig as inflammatory at all. I am just trying to get people to think twice before they post. The hardware that comes with HT engines is cr@p - but when people say it is Chinese Cr@p with Chinese quality control and cr@ppy Chinese engineering is where the racism comes into play. Do you see this as something else? How is that reverse racism? I would really like to know. If I was really that bothered by it, I would have left here a long time ago.

In any case, I replaced the cr@p stock hardware with quality grade 8 items from my local hardware store. Where did the high quality hardware come from? China.

I don't see how a several thousand "non-compliant" bicycle engines are creating an unfair trade situation and making them compliant will somehow "save our economy". It's not like there was a company here in America that made them. If I have to "save my "reverse racism" for someone who deserves it", then you can save your protectionist liberal policies for products and industries that actually matter.

Seriously Augi, if these engines were confiscated at port, importers would not try to bring them in any more. They would not be made "compliant" because the products are in a gray area themselves and would be near impossible to get the blessing of the EPA or DOT or whoever. Are they "off road" utility engines or are they "on road" vehicle engines. What will happen is that the Happy Times bicycle engine kit will just be another fun product that the rest of the world will continue to enjoy, but not here in the USA because it was regulated out of existence. (For the public good!) You know it, and I suspect this is probably your ultimate goal. Who stands to gain in the bicycle engine industry if there were no more HT imports? Hmmmmmmm.

Which brings me to the point that the engines used on GEBE's, Statons and other "legal" bike kits are EPA compliant when used as "non road" utility engines. That's why Huasheng, Tanaka, Mitsu, Robin/Subaru, Honda have jumped through the hoops. They sell tens of thousands of engines for small tillers, augers, pumps, and other power equipment. When you strap one of these "non-road" engines on a bicycle, is it now considered an "on road" engine and regulated differently? Maybe Staton and GEBE kits technically are not legal because the engine doesn't have the proper certifications for what they are being used for. (an "on road" application) If the EPA takes a closer look at motorized bikes, you might just find that your efforts will make these "compliant" kits illegal and everyone loses. Also, any modifications to the intake, exhaust, etc. will automatically make them emissions non-compliant. Many MB enthusiasts tinker with the engine for more power, and are making their engines "compliant" engines "non-compliant". I really don't care because the total number of bicycle engines is waaaay too low for the EPA to care about. It never will be because MBs will never be mainstream or common. The MB has been around since the beginning of engine powered transportation. It evolved into the modern motorcycle, yet has still hung around in small numbers through the years. Modern scooters and small displacement motorcycles will see the greatest increases as they are more reliable and have dealer service and support. MB's will stay in th garages and workshops of tinkerers like us, so please don't try and take the HT away from us.

 

[augidog]

counterpoint: tanaka, mitsubishi, etc...all used on other on-road conveyances that enjoy less regulation than motorized bicycles in many cases, and are far less safe and viable as personal transportation. so we already know the way to go, & it's too bad it might be a bit painful.

the HT market has raked in many many dollars in profit, more than enuff to justify re-investment and improvements. that hasn't happened at any significant level...if the HT is lost to the market, it will be because of the market's behaviors, and not my attempts to get one fully labeled.

besides, i betcha grubee will play along, just as soon as the legislative "free ride" is comes to an end. people like making money, i'm sayin' they should earn a bit more of it. as you say, some chinese companies make quality products, case in point the differences in our favorite 105G steel wheels, a few dollars (exactly $3) is the difference between a carpy "hi-stop" coaster and the far better "shimano cb-e110."

and re the sig: the group i'm sure your comments are directed at have been under attack for years, being forced to accept racist behaviors and comments from other groups, but not allowed to speak out lest they be deemed racist. "reverse racism"...it's not a new phenomenon, just new at MBc...and our members have to see it every time you post, no matter if the statement is relevant to the topic or not. talking about whole groups when addressing the behaviors of some...isn't that racist?

 

[arceeguy]

counterpoint: tanaka, mitsubishi, etc...all used on other on-road conveyances that enjoy less regulation than motorized bicycles in many cases, and are far less safe and viable as personal transportation. so we already know the way to go, & it's too bad it might be a bit painful.

the HT market has raked in many many dollars in profit, more than enuff to justify re-investment and improvements. that hasn't happened at any significant level...if the HT is lost to the market, it will be because of the market's behaviors, and not my attempts to get one fully labeled.

besides, i betcha grubee will play along, just as soon as the legislative "free ride" is comes to an end. people like making money, i'm sayin' they should earn a bit more of it.

What other "on-road conveyances" are enjoying less regulation than motorized bikes? Are you talking emission regulation? Because that's what this whole thread is about. What about DOT approvals? My motorcycle has a label stating that it meets all applicable federal motor vehicle standards at the time of manufacture. Is this the placard that you want on every motorized bike? Even if you don't, this is what government will want. At that point, you might as well buy a small scooter or motorcycle because the price and hassle of a motorized bike won't be worth it.

From what I can see, Grubee doesn't sell two stroke kits here in the US anymore. But, once again - the rest of the world can buy these higher quality kits. We're stuck with the expensive (and forever back ordered) 4 stroke kits.

 

[augidog]

nope, this topic is NOT about clean air...it's about the other things that the label represents. that C.A.R.B. tag on my tanaka (2-stroke) assures me that tanaka has confidence that i'll enjoy 9000 bicycle miles with proper maintenance. i'm well over halfway there without a single engine problem.

in washington state, gas-boards and other "toys" are so unregulated it's sickening, while MB's are classed as mopeds and require an ungodly amount of mods to comply...thankfully, the cops on the front line are ok with us, and the legislation is willing to listen to our case...we need that label if we're going to be taken seriously.

 

[arceeguy]

nope, this topic is NOT about clean air...it's about the other things that the label represents. that C.A.R.B. tag on my tanaka (2-stroke) assures me that tanaka has confidence that i'll enjoy 9000 bicycle miles with proper maintenance. i'm well over halfway there without a single engine problem.

in washington state, gas-boards and other "toys" are so unregulated it's sickening, while MB's are classed as mopeds and require an ungodly amount of mods to comply...thankfully, the cops on the front line are ok with us, and the legislation is willing to listen to our case...we need that label if we're going to be taken seriously.

Last I checked, the EPA and CARB were all about clean air - not engine durability. If your motive was engine durability, why should you care that a HT engine will wear out in 1000 miles? I could enjoy my HT engine for years and not accumulate 9000 miles.

If gas boards and other toys are unregulated, why not try and de-regulate motorized bikes rather than make everyone conform to draconian federal and state regs? I feel that a MB should be license, insurance, and registration free. If someone wants to use a gas board to go to work, they should be unregulated too. Personally, a goped for commuting is above my risk level, but that doesn't mean I should want them to be banned. My main point is that someone thinks of motorized bikes the same way YOU think about "gas boards and other toys". People riding small motorized conveyances (like MBs) are putting themselves at much more risk than they put the general public. That is why they should be unregulated. Kind of a "Darwin's Law" approach. Rules, regulations and taxes are always fine when someone else is affected, but remember that it won't be long until they want to mess with something that YOU love or depend on. Please think about that.

As far as the sinophobia goes, are you telling me that when someone whines about the "China quality control" or "Chinese Engineering" that you don't think those statements are racist at all? If you think that a product like the HT is junk, fine, post that you think it is junk. When you inject "Chinese" into your rant, it does become racist whether you like it or not.