official MBc stance on EPA?

[augidog]

if MB's become an accepted vehicle, there will at the least be some sort of permit, age limit, etc...and it's not because i say so, but because it will happen...in many places, my ideas would result in some DE-regulation. standardization is the goal...with the majority of the current engines i'm lobbying for being oversized, smokey, illegally imported, this isn't something that's gonna happen overnite.

and, your sig is a reverse racist dig, whether YOU think so or not, as you use it indiscriminately wherever you post. broad generalizations is what racism is, buddy. chinese officials & industrialists (and their american connections) aren't playing very nice right now, but heaven forbid an american say so, eh? if some junk comes out of china, then that makes it chinese junk...geez!

 

[arceeguy]

if MB's become an accepted vehicle, there will at the least be some sort of permit, age limit, etc...and it's not because i say so, but because it will happen...in many places, my ideas would result in some DE-regulation. standardization is the goal...with the majority of the current engines i'm lobbying for being oversized, smokey, illegally imported, this isn't something that's gonna happen overnite.

and, your sig is a reverse racist dig, whether YOU think so or not, as you use it indiscriminately wherever you post. broad generalizations is what racism is, buddy. chinese officials & industrialists aren't playing very nice right now, but heaven forbid an american say so, eh? if (some) junk comes out of china, then that makes it chinese junk...geez!

Please show me an example of how your ideas would result in de-regulation.

I've built three HT powered bikes so far, and none of them are smoky. Oversized? 50cc or 66cc, what's the big deal. The 50cc limit is ridiculously small anyway. Be truthful with us, you just want them gone.

Funny how you say that "broad generalizations is what racism is buddy", and that is what I am referring to - "buddy". Many people here generalize and say that all products from China are "junk", poorly engineered, etc. and so on. I have owned some junky American made products, but I don't label all American products as junk. Heck, I've owned crappy products made from all over the globe. This is the attitude I am fighting against. You are taking my examples too literally and you know it. I don't like the authoritarian government of China, but they do have a capitalist economy - the communist leaders knew that there would be revolution if they did not adopt this economic philosophy. I believe that China will eventually have a democratic government because of the fact that they (the people) want what we want.

I'm not going to discuss this with you anymore as it is obvious that we should agree to disagree, but please explain the de-regulation aspect of your "plan".

 

[augidog]

in washington state, gas-boards and other "toys" are so unregulated it's sickening, while MB's are classed as mopeds and require an ungodly amount of mods to comply...thankfully, the cops on the front line are ok with us, and the legislation is willing to listen to our case...we need that label if we're going to be taken seriously.

i've already explained. i completely dig the general federal guidelines as perfect for a mature MB-crowd, and i believe in the viability of the MB as a possible supporting pillar of the new american economy that's on the way. i also believe that standardization will NOT kill the HT but rather get it up to speed with the other "recreational" engines in use. as you say, they're capitalists, and citizen-workers...so trust the system to keep the HT rolling, i do.

and anyone truly aware of my HT-history wouldn't be questioning my genuine desire to tangle with one that has all the buzz and performance of my dinky 32cc Tanaka...it's so doable, and there's no good reason i should give up pursuing a HT that's everything it could be.

 

[arceeguy]

Ah, now I get it. Maybe in your state, it would be considered de-regulation to not define a motorized bike as a moped.

Here in NJ, I asked the DMV and they said that legality was up to my local municipality. So I called my local police, and they said that there was no ban on motorized bikes. (pocket bikes and goped type scooters are illegal though) My conclusion is that a motorized bike is an unregulated motor vehicle. I haven't gotten hassled by local cops yet, they just drive by and sometimes they wave as they go by. I would like the state of NJ to actually define a motorized bike as not a moped or motorcycle, and to put in writing that no license, registration or insurance is required.

Problem is that more attention from government may not be good for the future of the MB community. Government rarely loosens its hold, it always seems to tighten its grip. So maybe it is best that in these "gray area" states we just fly under the radar and not stir up the pot.

Another area where we need to agree to disagree is the future of HT engines. Tight import regulation will just make them unavailable because there are plenty of other markets around the world for these factories to make money. Illegal aliens from Mexico cross our borders every day and are a burden on our social system, and our government does little to stop the flow. So a container load of HT engines is really inconsequential in the big picture. So let's just let them be.

 

[BSA]

Surely a more constructive way to get improvements with the happy time engine would be to speak to vendors to get them to stock better engines, for example the skyhawk. If we all bought skyhawk engines (which are EPA compliant) poorer quality manufactorers would be forced to improve. Thats the way markets work. We seem to be discussing the issue of the MB future but doing very little other than making HT users feel unwelcome.
If you don't believe me i spoke to a vendor here in England and he sais that he might offer a quality upgrade kit. This isn't an improvement to engine manufacturing itself, but is nevertheless a vast improvement.

BSA

 

[augidog]

yes, i agree that the consumer is supposed to be the (ultimate) controlling factor. no, i don't agree that one guy trying to get folks to look to the future (in the usa) is making HT-riders feel unwelcome.

like you, i feel that the grube 48cc kit is the closest HT we have to a solution...with organized consumer support, it could be...and of course proper consumer strategy might could lead to more than just the one option.

we can't stay under the radar, those days are gone. and, btw...this forum is chock-full of folks braggin' about higher speeds, bigger engines, multi-speeds...they give locations and riding areas, post pics of the bike, etc...with few exceptions, we see no real attention to safety or social-compromise...not exactly the right strategy to take if staying invisible is in fact a goal.

i think it's a good thing for the visitor to see that at least some of us are taking this seriously.

 

[arceeguy]

....we can't stay under the radar, those days are gone. and, btw...this forum is chock-full of folks braggin' about higher speeds, bigger engines, multi-speeds...they give locations and riding areas, post pics of the bike, etc...with few exceptions, we see no real attention to safety or social-compromise...not exactly the right strategy to take if staying invisible is in fact a goal.

i think it's a good thing for the visitor to see that at least some of us are taking this seriously.

These are the people that will get MBs over regulated or banned. You are not going to stop anyone from modifying a HT or strapping on a dirt bike engine, driving like an idiot and killing themselves. However, the knee jerk reaction will be that we need to ban them. People get killed riding bicycles and driving cars every day. One has minimal regulation, one is highly regulated - people still perish. But in the case of pedal bicycles, it is usually because of a tangle with a car. Like I said before, the rider of a motorized bike is the one taking the personal risk and is no real threat to the general public. After an accident, I don't think the police investigators are really going to be looking for EPA compliance labels on engines. So it will make little difference if it is a "illegal" Happy Times engine, or a "legal" Honda GXH50. And if the Honda had a modified exhaust and non-factory air intake, it would be just as illegal in the eyes of the EPA, so the sticker means nothing. We just want to encourage everyone to ride in a responsible manner, so that when the idiot in shorts, t-shirt and flip flops doing 50 tacoes a wheel on a utility cover, it will be after law enforcement is used to seeing the bulk of MBs being ridden responsibly.

 

[augidog]

typical 1-way thinking from many here...so the MB fares worse than the cager...illegal speed and power, that makes the cager a victim no matter who's at "fault"...lost time, lost damages (remember, you want no-accountibility for MB'ers), the trauma of hurting (or killing!) someone else, it goes on...and when the ban comes on the heels of some 12yo gray-matter on the asphalt, i also lose my ride, even tho i've tried to get things straight.

let us agree that you just like to disagree...i bumped this topic to announce a new strategy of including the HT of legal size...so, methinks it wouldn't matter what i say. and i still think yer sig is inappropriate on MBc.

i'll continue to advocate safety and legality, including what i think will be "legality" in the future.

 

[BSA]

Somewhere between the two differing points of view the answer lies. Augi has a point that I have only recently realised, and I agree with him to a large extent. We don't want all motoredbikes banned because of a few rotten apples, and it will indeed stay harder to stay ender the radar in some areas. I f the merket is flooded with illegal engines it will become difficult. You can't expect people not to get 70cc engine though. Arceeguy also has a valid point, the motoredbike is not (and is perhaps never likely to be) a very major concern for authorities. And I would also like to say that as a forum we do promote safety, and sound mechanical practice.

Instead of discussing this round and round of circles, lets all tell our vendors we want skyhawks, and lets constantly remind them that we want improvements made. Thats what I've done/doing asap.

BSA

 

[arceeguy]

typical 1-way thinking from many here...so the MB fares worse than the cager...illegal speed and power, that makes the cager a victim no matter who's at "fault"...lost time, lost damages (remember, you want no-accountibility for MB'ers), the trauma of hurting (or killing!) someone else, it goes on...and when the ban comes on the heels of some 12yo gray-matter on the asphalt, i also lose my ride, even tho i've tried to get things straight.

let us agree that you just like to disagree...i bumped this topic to announce a new strategy of including the HT of legal size...so, methinks it wouldn't matter what i say. and i still think yer sig is inappropriate on MBc.

i'll continue to advocate safety and legality, including what i think will be "legality" in the future.

Augi - where did I say that the "cager" is always the victim? I simply want no insurance, licensing or registration requirements for MBs. Why should a MB carry liability insurance when it is the other party that is most likely liable. Even if the MB driver is at fault, how much damage can you do? If a MB driver is that reckless and negligent where he severely injures or kills someone else, let the victim (or victims family) take the guy to court. Make the minimum age 16, with helmet optional over 18. Keep the speed at 20 max, and I think we have reasonable regulation. But when you require insurance, registration and license, you essentially kill the market. Look at what happened to mopeds in the 70's and early 80's. They surged in popularity due to rising fuel costs, and were subsequently regulated into obscurity in most states. If I needed to register and insure my MB, I would have never built it. I already have a motorcycle and plan on buying another motorcycle. But I do enjoy riding the motorized bike. (I also sold a couple of MBs!)

I am a huge advocate of safe MB practices and have lectured the people who purchased the bikes I built. (They also signed legal waivers) I would love to see NJ have a legal definition of a motorized bicycle (with minimal requirements) so that they won't be in a gray area anymore.

I'm sorry you think that I just like to disagree, but what I am trying to do is inject another point of view. It just so happens that we don't agree 100%
I do try and bring up valid arguments to prove my points rather than just mindlessly argue. I'm also sorry you think my sig is inappropriate. Once again, I think you misunderstand the purpose. I don't particularly like a lot of signatures around here either, but I don't make it an issue.

BSA- One of the HT engines I bought is EPA legal and has a catalytic converter in the muffler. The other two that were from Canada weren't. Since they are the same price, I will only buy the EPA version from now on.