Testing a method to increase spark current

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how do you keep the lens clean?


definitely the idea thought up by a uni graduate, not someone with practical experience. (i take that back after reading the photonics link. some experience....)
more useless catch phrases, like "CNC machined" and "CAD engineered".


wooohoo, we got LAAAAAASER ignition.
 
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go to the link I provided.
the lens is self cleaning
 
I got the itch to do my own testing after watching a video of someone testing increased spark with 500pf of capacitance in parallel with a spark plug;

Here are my results with three 680pf capacitors in series (each rated 6300 volts) in parallel with a non-resistive spark plug gapped at .025” (.65mm).
Tests were done with spark plug in open air at sea level using my CDI tester.
View attachment 59482

with KX250F ignition coil (#F6T563) (.3 ohm primary, 13.8K secondary coil resistance)
It didn't increase the spark power but it stabilized spark timing which is important.
Normally there are many stray spark occurrences that are as much as 10 degrees retarded. Those events would cause a reduction in engine power since timing is critical. With the capacitance the sparks all happened at the same timing without any straying. You could see that at the spark also. Without the capacitance the sparks moved around, but with it they stayed at the same place.

KX65 ignition coil (.4 ohm primary, 5.5K secondary coil resistance)
It increased spark power so that the spark changed from thin purple to thick white.
But it allowed the normal stray spark occurrences.

Kawasaki KDX220 (#1G 3960) ignition coil (.2 ohm primary, 11.1K secondary resistance)
Pretty much the same results as the KX65 coil.

None of these coils in combination with parallel plug capacitance worked with my Suzuki AX100 which has 150psi cranking compression. I couldn't get the engine started. All I can assume is that the capacitors lower spark plug voltage so that no spark can occur inside the combustion chamber. (cylinder pressure requires around 3 times as much voltage for a spark to occur*) I even tried it with four capacitors to lower the capacitance to 175pf but without success.

* a flat surface spark gap needs 3Kv for a spark to occur at sea level in open air whereas at 145psi 9Kv is needed.



Try flipping the magnet upside down and reverse the polarity to the coil....... bufu #1 you need a a 12 o'clock magnet
 


the plug polarity is already optimal so if I reversed that (by reversing the polarity to the coil) the spark would be even less likely to jump the gap.
And if I reversed the magnet that changes nothing other than the spark timing.

Two of the worst suggestions I ever heard. thanks for wasting our time.


from http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig104.htm
The spark plug has a thermally insulated center electrode (surrounded by ceramic). With engine running
the center electrode runs substantially hotter than the exposed end electrode. Design of the ceramic
insulator determines how hot the center electrode will run, leading to the designation of hotter or
colder spark plugs. As electrons go, they love to jump away from a hot surface and fly toward a colder
surface, so it is easier to drive them from hot to cold rather than from cold to hot. End result is a
difference of 15 to 30 percent in voltage required to make spark "initially" jump the gap on the plug
depending on which way it is going. So the spark plug prefers to see a voltage potential that is
negative on the center electrode and positive on the end electrode for the very first hop of the spark.
Oddly enough, this has nothing to do with polarity of the vehicle electrical system, but it is
influenced by the common connection inside the ignition coil.
 
Hey Jaguar, watched your capacitor test.
What a difference. Hate to ask a stupid question but, will a suppressor coil wire hurt the CDI or Magneto? I have a plastic ZIP connect spark plug cap, and don't like them I've had them come unscrewed and come apart. I have a coil wire I got from CarQuest in a box of misc. wires. The wire is a lot better quality than the Chinese original. I'm having trouble with my cheep turn lamp no flashing while the engine is running. I believe it's electrical interference from the plug wire or the entire ignition system, not sure which. I know it's not vibration. The Flasher set up is isolated. (No grounding to frame). Just wanted to check. Some people on here list the spark plug they run, and some are resister plugs. I just replaced the CDI & MAGNETO. Had to replace the magnet also (that turned out to be the no spark problem). Out of many builds, this is the first magnet to go bad on me. Would like your input about plugs and wires. Please, I need knowledge.
 
I got the itch to do my own testing after watching a video of someone testing increased spark with 500pf of capacitance in parallel with a spark plug;

Here are my results with three 680pf capacitors in series (each rated 6300 volts) in parallel with a non-resistive spark plug gapped at .025” (.65mm).
Tests were done with spark plug in open air at sea level using my CDI tester.
View attachment 59482

with KX250F ignition coil (#F6T563) (.3 ohm primary, 13.8K secondary coil resistance)
It didn't increase the spark power but it stabilized spark timing which is important.
Normally there are many stray spark occurrences that are as much as 10 degrees retarded. Those events would cause a reduction in engine power since timing is critical. With the capacitance the sparks all happened at the same timing without any straying. You could see that at the spark also. Without the capacitance the sparks moved around, but with it they stayed at the same place.

KX65 ignition coil (.4 ohm primary, 5.5K secondary coil resistance)
It increased spark power so that the spark changed from thin purple to thick white.
But it allowed the normal stray spark occurrences.

Kawasaki KDX220 (#1G 3960) ignition coil (.2 ohm primary, 11.1K secondary resistance)
Pretty much the same results as the KX65 coil.

None of these coils in combination with parallel plug capacitance worked with my Suzuki AX100 which has 150psi cranking compression. I couldn't get the engine started. All I can assume is that the capacitors lower spark plug voltage so that no spark can occur inside the combustion chamber. (cylinder pressure requires around 3 times as much voltage for a spark to occur*) I even tried it with four capacitors to lower the capacitance to 175pf but without success.

* a flat surface spark gap needs 3Kv for a spark to occur at sea level in open air whereas at 145psi 9Kv is needed.


First I would like to say I'm your fan Jaguar, 'coz you are not only a great engineer, but also have studied, tested and improved a lot of 2 strokes issues discussed by profesionals and amateurs, to consistently gain fair power (not like shift kits and banana exhausts and stuff like those).

That being said, I was sure somewhere you had tested this stuff about capacitance in parallel with spark plugs... So here we are :)

I'm making some discoveries of my own, and have some stuff to share. In another post of yours about resistive spark plugs, you talk about resistive spark plugs caps... Well I have a 5K NGK one.

And this is important because this elevates voltage output theorically as long as higher the resistance, higher the voltage.

However this shows the opposite: http://www.brightsparkmagnetos.com/faqs/FAQs about magnetos generally/Are suppressors and resistor sparking plugs OK to use with magnetos.htm

This is supposed to be in another thread, and I want to discuss an interesting phenomenon there... however this is basic background to what I'm about to discuss here:

Is a 5K or a 10K spark plugs cap before the spark plug + High Voltage capacitor able to increase the voltage output even more than the same setup with a non-resistive spark plug cap?

http://mtg-technologies.com/automotivesubpages/ignition/ignition.htm

Second to this I found, i t he link above, what does the capacitance to a spark, it makes it shorter, even if more powerful, burning time seems to be lessen.

So it seems it's voltage peak (plasma spark) VS burning time.

Plasma spark plugs are supposed to give a fire spark in nanoseconds, while a regular spark burn in microseconds.

And first than anything, capacitance in parallel doesn't works on resistive spark plugs because the spark flows only though the capacitors and not through the spark plug.

So for these, we need non-resistive spark plugs. And if you test it turning the pedals with the spark plug making contact with the ground chasis of the motor you can notice a double or triple brighter spark (depending on the amount of parallel capacitance added). I used 2x220pF in serie for a 110pF equivalent capacitance.

So third, could it be that the best configuration is a resistance at the saprk plug cap, before the spark plug+capacitor?i Since we can only use non-resistive spark plugs?

All my tests at 1230m or 4046ft above sea level.

May be the last image in the link below is the reason also you can't get a spark on your AX100 Jaguar.

http://mtg-technologies.com/automotivesubpages/ignition/ignition.htm
 
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blah blah blah blah. and rhubarb too.

you guys need to play with some high voltage supplies.

memories of fooling around with tesla coils and 15kv transformers.

strike an arc from the trasnformer directly. it starts at about an inch away, then you can draw the ionised arc out to several inches, depending on air currents. its how a jacob ladder works (hot air rises, the arc heats the air, the arc remains established). it doesnt make much noise, just a dull sizzling sound. whole 15mA of current...

then add a capacitor.

crack crack crack...

whats happening?

the capacitor stores energy.

its "soaking up" the current, storing charge as potential on two plates.

bigger the capacitance, the more current it takes to charge. or really, energy, as it can charge slowly with a low current, or quickly, with a high current.

and capacitors have this strange behaviour. given a short circuit, they can discharge virtually instantly, releasing that charge in nanoseconds or less. because of the amount of energy released in such a short time, the currents are correspondingly large. we are talking a few hundred amps. not tens, not milliamperes...HUNDREDS of amps.

once it charges to the potential required to arc across the gap, BANG. the arc is acting as a short circuit, and the capacitor discharges instantly. crack.

thats all this "plasma ignition" is.

it doesnt work with a resistive plug because the resistor reduces the current flow.

the cap cant charge fast enough if a resistive lead or boot is used.
the cap cant discharge fast enough with a resisitive plug.

the resistor serves two purposes. reduce or suppress EMI, and to stretch out the duration of the short spark that a CDI produces otherwise...because it is just a capacitor discharging into the small resistance of a ignition coil. the smaller the winding resistance, the more current it can deliver, but the shorter the duration of spark.

refer to jennings on discussions about spark duration...it IS an issue with CDI.

back to our plasma ignition, or jamming a capacitor in parallel with the spark gap.

bloody tesla, doing all this 150 odd years ago...

a typical ignition coil, be it an induction type as used in cars, or simple step up types as used in CDI, is a COIL. an inductor.
and what do we get when we have an inductor and a capcitance in parallel?

a tank circuit, a tuned circuit. it oscillates.

in a typical ignition system, the arc only travels in one direction. its a DC pulse. some systems also make use of the resultant back EMF from the coil and use it to charge the CDI capacitor a bit, assisting the power supply to charge it sufficiently.

with my neon sign transformer, its a sine wave of 50hz, and the ionised air lingers around long enough at every zero crossing to keep the spark lit. it blows out quite easily once the arc is stretched out further than it can initially jump across. a DC arc, its almost impossible to blow out. sadly, in a CDI system, its such a short pulse that we actually have to slow it down with some resistors.

but this capacitor changes things.

it can charge instantly, discharge instantly.

every time the potential at the gap gets high enough to arc, yes, the capacitor discharges. the coil builds a huge magnetic field...
that then collapses, and dumps a huge current back into the capcitor, that soaks it up instantly... and then discharges again...

you dont get a single spark. you get a ringing, an oscillation of a few Mhz or so. it only lasts briefly as the resistances in the circuit quickly dissipate the power, quenching the arc. more resistance, the shorter the duration.

at 50 hz, you get 100 discharges per second. you hear them as a cracking sound, like a gunshot when the capacitances and hence currents start getting large. try discharging a 200,000uf cap bank charged at just 400V (through your thumb...owwwwww. i didnt stop shaking for five hours...). its pretty violent.

i dont have access to a cap bank that large that can take Kv... but give me enough wine bottles and i shall try!

each "crack" is actually an oscillation of a seriously high frequency, that frequency being determined by capacitance and inductance. its very high with the small cores used in CDI ignition coils. low inductance. its a very low frequency in auto ignition coils that use induction, therefore have high inductance.

the addition of any resistance to the circuit quenches the oscillation too fast. thats why plasma ignition doesnt work if you use resistive components.

and, that being said, back to the neon sign transformer. without the capacitor, the arc can be stretched right out before extuinguishing because its coming from a sinewave, and the actual voltage across the arc is very low, its acting like a short circuit. as the sinewave crosses the zero point, it only does so very briefly compared to the complete cycle. ionised air hangs around long enough to remain ionised.

but with the capacitor, it cannot be stretched out any further than the maximum striking distance, (one inch at 15Kv) as the capacitor is causing the arc to have a definite potential to reach before ionisation can occur, so it has a definite on and off period. the ionised air dissipates before the next arc can start. open the gap any larger, and the arc goes out. (and blows up the test tubes you used to make the capacitor with as all that energy attempts to go somewhere.)


pretty simple really. nothing magical.

wears out your spark gap pretty quickly. you definitely want iridium/platinum plugs for that... the hard to find type, with both electrode and ground strap of the precious metal, as the arc is travelling both ways when a ring starts up.

neither the capacitor or resistor change the total energy in the system. that is delivered and limited by the power supply. all they do is alter how that energy is administered at the spark gap.
the voltage doesnt increase, its already at a fixed maximum potential based on the charge in the CDI capacitor, and the turns ratio of the coil (or the inductance and rate that the magnetic field collapses +turns ratio when using an induction/auto ignition coil...which is why we also put a capacitor across the points in old ignition systems. it quenches the applied voltage in the primary fatser, causing faster magnetic collapse, causing faster moving field lines, that cut the conductors of the secondary faster and produce more EMF... is that maxwells or faradays thing? the EMF in a conductor is proportional to the speed and the number of magnetic lines cutting that conductor)

for a given potential through a given resistance, only so much current can flow. ohms law.

one day, im going to rebuild that tesla coil...
 
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blah blah blah blah. and rhubarb too.

you guys need to play with some high voltage supplies.

memories of fooling around with tesla coils and 15kv transformers.

strike an arc from the trasnformer directly. it starts at about an inch away, then you can draw the ionised arc out to several inches, depending on air currents. its how a jacob ladder works (hot air rises, the arc heats the air, the arc remains established). it doesnt make much noise, just a dull sizzling sound. whole 15mA of current...

then add a capacitor.

crack crack crack...

whats happening?

the capacitor stores energy.

its "soaking up" the current, storing charge as potential on two plates.

bigger the capacitance, the more current it takes to charge. or really, energy, as it can charge slowly with a low current, or quickly, with a high current.

and capacitors have this strange behaviour. given a short circuit, they can discharge virtually instantly, releasing that charge in nanoseconds or less. because of the amount of energy released in such a short time, the currents are correspondingly large. we are talking a few hundred amps. not tens, not milliamperes...HUNDREDS of amps.

once it charges to the potential required to arc across the gap, BANG. the arc is acting as a short circuit, and the capacitor discharges instantly. crack.

thats all this "plasma ignition" is.

it doesnt work with a resistive plug because the resistor reduces the current flow.

the cap cant charge fast enough if a resistive lead or boot is used.
the cap cant discharge fast enough with a resisitive plug.

the resistor serves two purposes. reduce or suppress EMI, and to stretch out the duration of the short spark that a CDI produces otherwise...because it is just a capacitor discharging into the small resistance of a ignition coil. the smaller the winding resistance, the more current it can deliver, but the shorter the duration of spark.

refer to jennings on discussions about spark duration...it IS an issue with CDI.

back to our plasma ignition, or jamming a capacitor in parallel with the spark gap.

bloody tesla, doing all this 150 odd years ago...

a typical ignition coil, be it an induction type as used in cars, or simple step up types as used in CDI, is a COIL. an inductor.
and what do we get when we have an inductor and a capcitance in parallel?

a tank circuit, a tuned circuit. it oscillates.

in a typical ignition system, the arc only travels in one direction. its a DC pulse. some systems also make use of the resultant back EMF from the coil and use it to charge the CDI capacitor a bit, assisting the power supply to charge it sufficiently.

with my neon sign transformer, its a sine wave of 50hz, and the ionised air lingers around long enough at every zero crossing to keep the spark lit. it blows out quite easily once the arc is stretched out further than it can initially jump across. a DC arc, its almost impossible to blow out. sadly, in a CDI system, its such a short pulse that we actually have to slow it down with some resistors.

but this capacitor changes things.

it can charge instantly, discharge instantly.

every time the potential at the gap gets high enough to arc, yes, the capacitor discharges. the coil builds a huge magnetic field...
that then collapses, and dumps a huge current back into the capcitor, that soaks it up instantly... and then discharges again...

you dont get a single spark. you get a ringing, an oscillation of a few Mhz or so. it only lasts briefly as the resistances in the circuit quickly dissipate the power, quenching the arc. more resistance, the shorter the duration.

at 50 hz, you get 100 discharges per second. you hear them as a cracking sound, like a gunshot when the capacitances and hence currents start getting large. try discharging a 200,000uf cap bank charged at just 400V (through your thumb...owwwwww. i didnt stop shaking for five hours...). its pretty violent.

i dont have access to a cap bank that large that can take Kv... but give me enough wine bottles and i shall try!

each "crack" is actually an oscillation of a seriously high frequency, that frequency being determined by capacitance and inductance. its very high with the small cores used in CDI ignition coils. low inductance. its a very low frequency in auto ignition coils that use induction, therefore have high inductance.

the addition of any resistance to the circuit quenches the oscillation too fast. thats why plasma ignition doesnt work if you use resistive components.

and, that being said, back to the neon sign transformer. without the capacitor, the arc can be stretched right out before extuinguishing because its coming from a sinewave, and the actual voltage across the arc is very low, its acting like a short circuit. as the sinewave crosses the zero point, it only does so very briefly compared to the complete cycle. ionised air hangs around long enough to remain ionised.

but with the capacitor, it cannot be stretched out any further than the maximum striking distance, (one inch at 15Kv) as the capacitor is causing the arc to have a definite potential to reach before ionisation can occur, so it has a definite on and off period. the ionised air dissipates before the next arc can start. open the gap any larger, and the arc goes out. (and blows up the test tubes you used to make the capacitor with as all that energy attempts to go somewhere.)


pretty simple really. nothing magical.

wears out your spark gap pretty quickly. you definitely want iridium/platinum plugs for that... the hard to find type, with both electrode and ground strap of the precious metal, as the arc is travelling both ways when a ring starts up.

neither the capacitor or resistor change the total energy in the system. that is delivered and limited by the power supply. all they do is alter how that energy is administered at the spark gap.
the voltage doesnt increase, its already at a fixed maximum potential based on the charge in the CDI capacitor, and the turns ratio of the coil (or the inductance and rate that the magnetic field collapses +turns ratio when using an induction/auto ignition coil...which is why we also put a capacitor across the points in old ignition systems. it quenches the applied voltage in the primary fatser, causing faster magnetic collapse, causing faster moving field lines, that cut the conductors of the secondary faster and produce more EMF... is that maxwells or faradays thing? the EMF in a conductor is proportional to the speed and the number of magnetic lines cutting that conductor)

for a given potential through a given resistance, only so much current can flow. ohms law.

one day, im going to rebuild that tesla coil...


Thank you HeadSmess, I couldn't find resistance effect in oscilloscope graph at spark on second coil, and I can see my theory about spark's duration vs spark's energy stars to make sense.

And how you explain condenser effect is also cool... However we are talking about 2 strokes engines with a CDI, not 4 strokes with a battery fed ignition coil. So the shortest spark no matter if 40Kv, will have a poor effect on 2 strokes ignition.

I went to Jennings studies as you recommended and he also says in two strokes engines the spark's energy is not the main issue, but duration of the spark due turbulence ignition to create a self-sustaining spark.

Also another studies shows that in high turbulence non-uniform mixtures the most important thing is duration of the spark, that must be 10% ignited by the spark (during spark duration) for the best results.

The most important thing is timing, because spark must happens and continue during 10ms just in the right moment we are reaching the max compression point, depending of the timing curves.

So in order of importance for the perfect carburation and best power output it would be:

1) uniformity of the mixture (not possible in 2 steokes engines due the mixing of burnt gasses with new ones)
2) timing (as Jaguar's researchs have shown)
3) coil condition and spark happening (Jenning's research shows if happening after 45ms then it would be too late to ignite properly the mixture and be a a wasted or old coil uses to go that way)
4) spark energy/power (the voltage gives us a better spark with a bigger gap at higher RPMs with a little better duration)
5) spark duration (to get a self-sustained spark and burn the most possible fuel helped by flow and.turbulence),
6) kernel temperature (the higher the better, but not higher to seize the piston, so we have to get the perfect spark plugs, a colder one than the one we need and we are loading performance, if a hotter one, week, you all now, possible piston seize for say the less).


So, the better way to go is with a High Performance CDI like Jaguar's one, because supplies a more powerful spark, that allow us to have a bigger spark plug gap at higher revs per minute (even 10K RPM), but mostly important: with a better timing, (as Jennings insist on 2 strokes timing curves), and third we can use the excess of energy through a spark cap resistance and resistive spark plugs in order to have the longest duration possible to burn the max possible amount of fuel mixture.

Of not, it seems by deduction, that highest resistance between stock CDI and a resistive spark plugs that can support 8000 revs with a gap between 0.8mm and 1.1mm, will give us the longer duration of the spark without wasting energy on already ignited mixture.

That might explain why the highest the resistance betweens rock CDI and the spark electrodes, the better the response, power output (low and high RPMs) and carburation reading in the plug.

BTW, Jennings application of a condenser is not for increaaing energy output of the spark, but to reduce the timing in raising and triggering at the right time, (as previously said, between the first 45ms when the spark must happen respect the RPMs and correspondent timing curve).
 
I will further summit my results between capacitance vs ressitance. I will test with 5K, 10K, and 15K resistance the stock coil vs a 55pF, 110pF, and 220pF results.

And the combination of both. Because a resistance + a condenser should netralice the retarded timing that resistance offers.

Also, adding a condenser also supposed to retardrtimming between 5° to 9° if I found the documentation again I will summit it to you.

I could't find any investigations due time advance when condensates are used with spark plugs in 2 strokes.

However I found some posts about experiences form people having an advance from 5° to 18° in 4 strokes, when using condensators. So they had to adjust distributor angle to correct timing.
 
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why cant i quote anything? dammit.

i did say "refer to jennings...spark duration is an issue with CDI."

thats what the resitance is there for, besides EMI suppresion. to reduce current, which increases dicharge time. peak voltages remain the same.

theres two capacitors in the CDI with seperate tasks. the main cap simply stores energy from the "alternator".

the secondary caps are part of the advance/retard circuit.

once again...adding a cap across the spark gap doesnt alter the total energy, but causes that energy to release in a larger burst. and also starts up an oscillation that can keep the arc ignited for a longer length of time, until the resistance in the circuit absorbs enough energy to quench the arc. it may last anywhere form one or two cycles to several hundred...depends on total resistance. the lower the better...if ringing/plasma discharge is what you want to achieve.
any extra resistance kills any tendency to oscillate and you are back to a standard spark, slightly stretched out.

induction coils or auto car coils work on a completely different principle to CDI and are affected differently, i only mention them for the sake of completeness. theres always someone that will pipe up and complain...usually me!

not all four strokes use battery fed ignition...ahem...honda gx25/35, the robin subaru, 99% of asian pitbike engines... just about all motorbike engines actually...

the thing is, that an induction coil is more robust, especially these days when they use transistorised triggering rather than a set of points that wear out. you very rarely see the ignition triggering system in cars fail these days.

in CDI systems, the weak point is the capacitor. storing energy and releasing it as quickly as they do, at the voltages they operate at, seriously stresses the capacitor. they can and do fail. they come with not only voltage and capacitance ratings, but also frequency and temperature ratings. exceed any of them and kaboom. dead cap. and doing the work they do, they still only have a finite life.

which is a prick when you have to replace the CDI module on anything....they know they will fail...and sell the new ones for $400 or so. and they WILL blow up if you dont use rsesistive leads, boot or plug when they are designed to use one. trust me...i know.... (my boot fell apart, i had no choice but to strap the lead straight to the plug. the module failed within ten minutes. then i tried it with a few pit bikes with the same results. chuck in a resistive plug, never had an issue.)


that being said...i never had any ssues with the stock CDI, or when i started fooling around with the homemade circuits. the home made circuits were able to produce a spark at much lower voltages than the stock CDI though.
 
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