Wollongong Australia, MB court case

Discussion in 'Laws, Legislation & Emissions' started by will_start, Jul 15, 2010.

  1. will_start

    will_start Member

    Last edited: Jul 15, 2010

  2. MrShorty

    MrShorty Member

    Hope that dumb *** doesn't help change your laws, about MB's!
  3. will_start

    will_start Member

    Why do you say such a thing ?

    Why is he dumb ?

    Why should the laws stay as is ?

    I had to fight the urge to flame you.

    There is no positive spin here,
    you're just rubbing salt, where its not needed.
  4. MrShorty

    MrShorty Member

    Sorry, But I read it the first time as he was racing around.
    I thought it as a guy that was breaking the law.
    Had to reread it. Sorry
  5. screaming emu

    screaming emu Member

    This sort of thing is always going to come up for as long as the measuring of an engine out-put is too difficult to do on the side of a road. We need to be regulated by speed not engine out-put! just another case where there is no certain out come because these are never clear cut cases. I have heard of endless similar cases being thrown out as there is not enough evidence. The police have used motorcycle dynos in the past which are not accurate for testing engines with such small out-puts. I bet if you approached the manufacturer of the dyno and asked "would your machine be accurate enough to test my motorized bike engine?" they would probably laugh at you and tell you it's for testing 100+ horses not 1/4.

    Either way I hope this guy is excused for more serious matters that are banked up in our courts. The government needs to change legislation to focus on speed not engine out-put! How much more money and time will they waste on treating commuting citizens like criminals! Just another case of micro managing which is the only thing the 'A' holes seem to be good at.
  6. will_start

    will_start Member

    Well, that is the history of the Australian Legal system,

    Guilty (we're all convicts), until proven innocent !!
  7. madact

    madact Member

    Might I just point out - under the current edition of the Australian Road Rules, a 'power-assisted' bicycle is defined as having an electric motor. ICE is technically excluded from the definition. What does this mean? It means that in the eyes of the law (as legislated), you can fit a well-muffled 1cc thimbledrome model airplane motor to your bike, and be a criminal. That the court has asked for documentation on the power output reflects the duty of the courts to interpret the law in a reasonable manner (in cases like this, the letter of the law is not always reasonable, and the courts have a duty to recognise this). I'm not holding my breath on the current case to resolve this issue, though - it would take a thimbledrome rider (or a couple of them) winning in court to really get the ICE/electric distinction properly quashed.
  8. AussieSteve

    AussieSteve Active Member

    Where is it stated that ICE engines are illegal as a power-assisted bicycle?
    It's my understanding, after reading everything that the RTA has to offer, that the only restriction is the motor's power output and not the type of motor.

    An excerpt from VSI27:-
    Either way, I don't think this guy will beat it, unless it's one of Rock Solid engine's 200W motors. They're certified.
    They don't do 47kph, though, so I suspect that his is a normal output engine - 1200W, I think, for 48cc or 1700W for 66cc.
    He shouldn't have told the magistrate that he could do 47kph since he was only clocked at 40kph. Not the brightest move.

    MrShorty, a change to our laws would be very welcome, just depends on exactly what changes.
    200W is ridiculous - 400W would be reasonable for electrics. ICE engines need to be rated differently.
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2010
  9. madact

    madact Member

    I stand corrected - this info was actually from a transport SA publication, which is apparently out of date :pinch:

    Agreed. At the very least the assist should have more power than a third leg, but personally, I'm not comfortable with pedelec, and think that if a separate speed limit is imposed it should only apply to un-faired upright bikes (i.e. MTBs, road racers and sit-up bikes), not 'bents and velos, and that even for sit-up bikes it should be no less tha 50kph...
  10. AussieSteve

    AussieSteve Active Member

    I'm not sure what the variation is state-to-state, but those rules are still current in NSW.
    (Possibly not for long, though.)

    For now, your "1cc thimbledrome model airplane motor" is safe. Let's race - you might still beat my 200W electric.

    Not sure about speed limits, there also needs to be a power restriction, but not a stupid one.
    ICE 2-stroke engines only achieve rated power at a very specific rpm, so limiting them to 200W maximum is downright ridiculous. It would mean that they're only usable right in the power-band. 1000W would be fair and, as mentioned earlier, 400W for electrics. (I'm talking about traditional, 'upright', 2-wheeled bicycles.)

    I'll try to remember to keep an eye on this case to see the result. (Wollongong is only one hour's drive from here - the police/court attitude will be the same.)
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2010
  11. screaming emu

    screaming emu Member

    It's been pasted around the traps many times but here is the current SA info on power assisted bikes again. Please note ICE engines have always been included since the act was introduced in 1959.
    Yes the site does include a picture of a chinese bike engine and they state it is over 200w. They may be correct with that build. However I have provided them with an ICE 200W RSE dyno reading back on 1/11/09. Of course they have not incuded such engines on their site as they aren't really that concerned. If they were they would change things and clarify what to look for!

    There is no speed limit but I own, build and sell Rock Solid Engines and the ICE will only do around 25km/hr, and that's where this guy who's been busted hasn't done himself any favours by doing 40+km/hr. In regards to electric bikes at 200w, I have seen suppliers such as gette who claim there bikes are 200w and even need a speed cut off mechanism at 32km/hr for safety. I am baffled as to how they would need a cut off for a 200w motor. I understand some setups are more efficient than others but this one leaves me scratching my head? Is it really 200w? What do you think ? Just as Tony at RSE knows if you are selling a product you need to back up your claims ie dyno reading.
    Just think how much more sense would it make for all business and consumers if it were regulated on a speed limit rather than watts...
  12. AussieSteve

    AussieSteve Active Member

    Much the same as NSW, (attached).

    My electric bike is 200W and I only weigh 50kg, yet mine certainly doesn't need anything to limit it to 32kph. It stops pulling altogether at 30kph.
    200W is 200W

    That would be OK if the speed was limited on the bike by a controller and not just by relying on riders sticking to a speed limit.

    One of the proposals for the next legislation revision is that power-assisted bicycles be fitted with a manufacturer's compliance plate stating power output.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 22, 2010
  13. madact

    madact Member

    Yep, closer reading of the info pamphlet confirms they say "This is not a power assisted bicycle because it is fitted with a petrol motor that produces more than 200 Watts." so, my bad.

    Have to disagree on the speed limit though, I'm building a velomobile which, even if I get it very wrong (e.g. my early attempts at high school :rolleyes7:), will be able to do speeds lycra-gang riders can only dream of on very little effort - I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to benefit from power-assist on long rides, too... 200W to keep my speed over 90kph on the Hay plains, that's all I ask :grin5:
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2010
  14. AussieSteve

    AussieSteve Active Member

    That's just because you want to go fast.:grin5:

    I'd love to see that. I guess you mean with lots of pedalling as well, though. Even if you were already doing 90kph, a 200W motor couldn't hold that without pedal assistance or a really good tailwind.
  15. madact

    madact Member

    Absolutely. A 200W motor alone will only hold 60-70, and pedalling alone will probably get me 90 for 10 minutes... but with motor plus pedalling, I should be able to hold 90 for the long haul. I figure if some freak of nature can hit 132kph sprinting in a 2-wheeled low-rider, and another freak of nature can average 50kph over 24 hours in a 3-wheeled low-rider, I should be able to hold 90kph for 10 hours with the benefit of 200 free watts :grin5:. My pie-in-the-sky 1-year goal is to do Adelaide to Sydney in 3 days... 2 if I get really fit :thinking:.
  16. AussieSteve

    AussieSteve Active Member

    Good luck. That's one h e l l of a ride. Personally, I can barely pedal to the local shops and back without power-assist. (Total 500metres.)
  17. madact

    madact Member

    That's why I said it was a pie-in-the-sky goal... but it's ambitious rather than unrealistic.

    Back OT, I'm not so sure that admitting being able to do over 40 is so silly - in real life. I can do 40 on an unassisted bicycle for oh, a minute or two, and probably hit 50 sprinting flat out with a mild tail wind :wink: - and that's on account of some recent lack of attention to my, umm, condition - the "Look at Me I'm a Cyclist" guys could probably do that on a sit-up bike without too much trouble. If he was doing 50 on motor alone, that would be sus, yes, if he was pedalling, not so much. As for whether his motor is really 200W, it looks well big enough to be a lot more, but without seeing dyno results, that's just supposition.

    On the other hand, it's a fairly good bet the courts are *ahem* under-informed when it comes to cycling, and saying "it does 47, tops" is an easy way to scare a judiciary whose information comes from a bunch of wowsers that think the Tour de France averages 30 (ref. the RTA proposal which claims the 'average' cyclist averages 20 and extrapolate the wind resistance for an elite athlete producing almost three and a half times the sustained power of the mythical 'average' oh-my-angina cyclist)... I sincerely hope those responsible for applying current laws take more care in their decisions than those (nominally) responsible for drafting new ones. Of course, if it is over 200W, then it is over 200W, and ignorance of the lawmakers is no excuse...
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2010
  18. screaming emu

    screaming emu Member

    I hear you Steve, I was just thinking along the same way cars are regulated by speed limits although they have the capacity to go much faster. The speed controller would help the less desirable biker to keep out of mischief. I am thinking along the lines of commuters having to carry heavy loads or big people who struggle to climb hills (I know they should be pedaling but the idea of having the power to help them up a hill after a hard days work might encourage them to get on a bike) I found the link interesting where they strongly suggested to avoid engines that are easily tampered with in regards to making them go faster. Boys being boys regardless of electric, petrol etc.. will always find a way to make them go faster, it's just what we do! lol

    Regarding the compliance plate, this would make things much clearer to regulate, a good idea amongst all the B.S. they have come up with in their last proposal.
  19. AussieSteve

    AussieSteve Active Member

    I'm in the 'struggle to climb hills' category. I've got emphysema and can't pedal much at all. (That'll be my defense.)

    I'll keep an eye on this case, especially since it's local. I'd love to see the guy win, but I think he's screwed. It doesn't bode well for the rest of us in the area. I'm nervous to ride the 2-stroke at the moment. Electric only for now.

    Here's a document on the proposed legislation. (I've been in touch with the author, Gabriel Denoury, re a focus group.):-
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2010
  20. screaming emu

    screaming emu Member

    Steve regarding your 200watt electric bike doing tops of 30km/hr, just as I suspected. There are a few suss ones out there with some whacked claims. They might want to take care in this day and age they could go a row as did the Madina scooter bikes. The supplier was making 200watt claims on their bikes and turns out they were all well over and left the manufacturer owing many $$ to the consumers and prosecutors.