Need Help, engine is dead

Discussion in 'General Questions' started by ElMicNip, Aug 22, 2009.

  1. ElMicNip

    ElMicNip Member

    Hello, let me start off by explaining; I started getting a intermittent squeak around the clutch area a couple of days ago. I haven't had time to investigate because of finals. Last night on my way home from work my engine started making a metal to metal screeching sound and my engine died, couldn't start it up again. I proceeded to pedaled home. This morning I took off clutch actuator cover and squirted some grease in bearing hole. Is it possible to put too much grease? Oh, and before I greased I tried to start it again and it started for a bit. Now after the greasing it wont even turn over. No combustion. When I'm pedaling and release clutch lever it just stops the bike. I could really use some help. Many thanks. And if you live in or near the 'couve I'll buy you a beer.:icon_cry:
    Jeff "ElMicNip"

  2. bigkat650

    bigkat650 Member

    I know very little about motors, but I know they need four things to work... Spark, fuel, air, and pressure... I would make sure that when you added grease, you didn't gum up the spark plugs, carb, or fuel lines... That would be my first bit of tinkering

    again, I am very novice in this area, its just what makes sense to me to try and do first. Good Luck, and I'm sure someone else can help you more then I can.
  3. motorpsycho

    motorpsycho Active Member

    so you are saying that the motor will NOT turn over at all? if you roll the bike and let the clutch out, does the back wheel lock up ?
    pull the spark plug out and see if the piston is going up & down while pushing the bike with the clutch out. if the piston doesn't move, and the back wheel locks up...then the motor may be seized up. you could have a bad bearing on the crankshaft or on the connecting rod.
    If it was a problem with the clutch, the back wheel would still turn after you left the clutch out, but the piston wouldn't go up & down...because the clutch would be slipping really bad.
    if you were hearing a metal to metal sound, it's possible that you burned up a bearing.
    what gas/oil ratio are you running in it ? (it is a 2 stroke right?).
    when you say that it won't turn over....usually an engine turning over is the piston not going up & down (combustion or not). combustion is when the engine is actually running. so it is possible for a motor to turn over and still not run.
    if your rear wheel still turns but the piston isn't going up & down when you are trying to start the engine, it's possible that you have a clutch issue. possibly the clutch pads are gone. The metal to metal sound could have been the flywheel rubbing the pressure plate. IF that's the case i'm pretty sure that the clutch would not work at all. as far as i know, the clutch uses rubber pads as the friction material to make the connection with the motor.
    it's possible that the flywheel and pressure plate are rubbing and that's where you are hearing the metal to metal sound. i'm pretty sure that the rubber clutch pads are what makes contact between the 2, to make the bike move.
    i am not positive on this tho because i haven't had one of these clutches apart yet.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2009
  4. ElMicNip

    ElMicNip Member

    okay, I removed the spark plug(its black)(can i use a wire brush to clean it) I the stuck a pencil in the hole(i couldn't see into it) and there was no up or down travel on the pencil(I walked it about 20 feet). Oh, my motor is 2-stroke 60cc my fuel is about 20:1. Does clutch out mean squeezing handle(=disengage?) or releasing handle(=engaged?) I tried the piston trick with the handle depressed.:dunce:
  5. mattysids

    mattysids Member

    if your piston doesn't move up and down with the clutch lever RELEASED (engaged) then it is very likely your engine has seized for any number of reasons (not enough oil, air leak, bad bearings, piece of dirt, etc.).

    it is probably your clutch if the back wheel simply doesn't move, clutch lever in or out.
  6. motorpsycho

    motorpsycho Active Member

    with the clutch lever realeased (out) and you push the bike.....does the rear wheel roll with resistance or does it not roll at all ?
    If the rear wheel is rolling with some resistance, it may just be that the clutch is slipping bad. If the rear wheel locks up, then it is very possible that your engine is seized.
    with the clutch handle released, spark plug out, pushing the bike, and presuming that the rear wheel is rolling with resistance, the piston SHOULD go up & down (you will be able to hear it as it moves up & down in the cylinder). the rear wheel rolling with resistance can be a good thing with the clutch out because it means that the rear wheel is turning the motor over.
    but you said that you rolled it 20 feet and your pencil did not move at all. was the rear wheel turning while you were pushing it? (with the clutch handle released (out) ).
    really, if the motor is locked, the rear wheel will not roll at all with the clutch handle released (out). if the clutch is bad, i'm pretty sure that the rear wheel will still roll. the clutch pads would not be making contact with the pressure plate, and not turning the motor over (no piston going up & down no matter what.)
  7. mattysids

    mattysids Member

    Well if the bearings between the inner wheel (the one with posts for the clutch plate) and the big wheel (gear with pads) have self destructed, then the wheel would be pushing the piston whether the the lever is engaged or not

    Am i right in this diagnosis?
  8. motorpsycho

    motorpsycho Active Member

    i don't really know but going from experience with clutches in semi trucks and cars....
    if the clutch friction material is gone, the car or truck will move (with the engine running) with the clutch pedal in or out. in a car or truck, the clutch "breaks torque" with the other words, when you push the clutch pedal in, it "breaks" the connection between the engine and the transmission so you can shift gears. i think these clutches work on the same priciple and instead of using an asbestos material for the friction material, they just use rubber pads. I THINK.
    i think you are right in your thinking...that if those bearings are gone, then the engine would be turning over all the time no matter where the clutch handle is. but usually if a bearing is gone...they just lock up instead of rolling like they are supposed to.
    so when you push the bike is the back wheel rolling?
    if the clutch is slipping, the back wheel will still roll, but the piston will not go up & down.
  9. Hawaii_Ed

    Hawaii_Ed Member

    Sounds to me like a locked/seized engine. They are easy to take apart, pull the head and see how looks.
  10. HoughMade

    HoughMade Guest

    We won't know anything until you take a walk with the bike with your hand off the clutch and plug out. pencil's a good idea- just hands off the clutch just like if you were riding with the engine.
  11. ElMicNip

    ElMicNip Member

    sorry, been to busy to even look at my bike lately. I pushed it with the clutch engaged(hands off) and i got no piston movement or tire movement. I assume the tires locking up is normal but I have no idea about piston movement. I'm thinking I should start building a new one. I've been wanting to. Any suggestions on brand? Ha ha, I don't even know if its fixable and I'm already being pessimistic. The guy who built it was a Jackalope from Kelso, WA., if I remember right. The bike really is junk. I have spent around $200 on it already. But seriously, I do plan on building a new bike soon (stuck on what kind of frame) but I would really like to salvage this one if possible. It runs a lot better now than when I got it. Thanks for all the input so far.
    P.S. is the centrifugal clutch really as good as it sounds?:detective:
  12. mattysids

    mattysids Member

    if the piston isn't moving with input from the wheel, the engine has seized

    so if you don't have extensive engine and machining knowledge, the engine is basically junk to you at this point
  13. ElMicNip

    ElMicNip Member

    I'm a little confused, my apologies. Does the piston normally move with the clutch disengaged? I thought with the engine not running and if the clutch is disengaged the engine would be "locked up"(like a car engine. But I'm assuming since my clutch "locks" it up the clutch is working correctly. Then that would mean its my engine. Is it possible that if I tear it apart it could be a warped ring that made my piston lock up (a friends suggestion)? Or is it time to reschedule my "happy time"?
  14. motorpsycho

    motorpsycho Active Member

    ok, here's how it works:
    with the clutch handle squeezed in, motor not running, the piston will NOT move up & down. but this will allow the rear wheel to still you can peddle your bike without turning the engine over. Since the clutch handle is squeezed, the clutch is allowing the sprocket on the engine to turn, but there is no connection between the crankshaft and the clutch.
    the clutch makes the connection when you release the handle.
    take 2 peices of sandpaper put the sides with sand on them together. spin one of the peices and they will both spin....there is friction and one will turn the other. (same as when the clutch handle is released). separate the 2 peices of sandpaper so they are not touching each other and spin one of them. since there is no friction between them, the only one that will turn is the one you are turning with your hand. (same as when the clutch handle is squeezed in) when the clutch is squeezed in, the 2 peices (clutch & pressure plate) separate and there is no the motor won't turn over, and the piston will not go up & down. but if the motor is running, the piston always goes up & down, no matter if the clutch is in or out.
    this is the same as being in a car that is a stick shift. with the transmission in 1st gear, car moving...push in the clutch and you can rev the engine like the transmission is in neutral. there is no connection between the transmission and the motor because the clutch is the motor can rev up without making the car go faster.
    when you release the clutch (or let the handle out) the clutch and pressure plate make a connection with friction material (there always has to be some kind of friction material on the clutch. metal to metal will not work.) and the connection allows the power to be put to the rear wheel. when the clutch "goes out" (or quits working) normally it's because all of the friction material is gone. same as with brake shoes and pads. once the friction material is gone from the shoes or pads, the brakes will no longer stop your car. a clutch works in the same general way.

    a warped ring? never heard of that before and i have done a ton of engine work (cars and motorcycles) now, a broken ring may cause the motor to loose compression and smoke more than normal, but usually the piston will still go up & down with a broken ring....and normally an engine with a broken ring will still run. even tho the ring is broken, it does not fall out of the piston because of the ring grooves that hold the rings to the piston. and the fit between the rings and the cylinder is a very tight fit. when a piston is in a cylinder, the piston never actually touches the cylinder walls...the rings do.
    usually a seized engine is due to lack of lubrication, or severe overheating. even if the rings are worn out to the point where you have no compression, the piston will still go up & down. either a bearing (connecting rod or crankshaft) has locked up do to lack of lube or the rings have seized to the cylinder because of lack of lube and / or overheating.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2009