Water Injection

Discussion in 'Performance Mods' started by jaguar, Sep 16, 2015.

  1. jaguar

    jaguar Well-Known Member

    Water in the intake tract adds to combustion pressure as the water droplets become vaporized and expand due to the combustion heat.
    It is a non-conventional way to get more power out of an engine. One way to do it is by normal vacuum that is only allowed to suck in water droplets above a certain RPM. But that would require two water tanks. One would be lower than the intake tract and its level always maintained the same by a float controlled valve, with water fed to it from a higher tank. Since I doubt I can find something like that I am considering looking for a windshield wiper pump and a relay that switches power to it off and on. The relay would be controlled by electronic circuitry that detects RPM (I know how to do that). Yes I know that water is not ideal on oil lubricated parts but the actual amount is very small, maybe one twentieth the amount of gasoline, and having it turn on only at higher RPM means that letting the engine idle a few seconds before turning it off will dry out the parts from all water. The injection point for a vacuum controlled system would have to be between the engine and the carburetor. With a pump it could be before the carb.

    Here's the best page on the subject with a way to do it that relies only on intake vacuum, not a pump:
    Here's a forum post about both types of water injection: http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/1011142-2-strokes-and-water-injection/
    Here's a page about injecting a pipe: http://www.saltmine.org.uk/randy/h2o-injection.html

    from one site on the subject:
    A superb octane-improver and ancillary coolant is that oldie but goodie water injection: humidifying the combustion air.
    Contrary to what would be expected from the fact that water vapour is a product of combustion, its presence before the fuel is burnt stimulates more complete burning. Several benefits, easily added to a wide variety of engines, can flow from this odd fact.
    The essential idea was developed in the first decade of the 20th century. The original purpose was cooling. By 1910 some engines which had been water-cooled were simply produced without water-jackets after addition of 'internal cooling', as water-injection was first called.
    Those engines had compression ratios around 4:1 and the phenomenon of preignition (knocking, pinking) was unknown. Later however this became themain reason for water injection, which turns out to give spectacular octane improvement, allowing CR as high as 13:1. By the end of WorldWar II many aero engines used water-injection. German versions use water-methanol mixtures, partly because straight water would freeze in winter. The Wright Cyclone, a main U.S. aero engine, tested with water and methanol-water (the two liquids being miscible in all proportions, unlike methanol & petrol), showed 50:50 best (as had the Germans). The results were summarised as "high savings in fuel cost - 52% at 100% power, decreasing to 25% at low cruise powers . . . pure water is approximately equal to fuel when used as an engine internal coolant at high power".Water gained the Corsair (flown by some Kiwi pilots in the Pacific) 350bhp on its normal maximum of 2100bhp - a 17% increase. These were supercharged engines, so the results may not translate readily to normal aspiration.
    Another alcohol, infamous ethanol, was similarly mixed with water before injection, but was not as good.
    When Renault attacked Formula1 with twin turbos cramming several atmospheres of boost into Gordini's1500cc V6, they readily achieved 450bhp but burned holes in pistons. Then a Kiwi mechanic recalled water-injection; a reliable 550bhp won the championship. The Saab turbo works rally car at one period had a water tank as big as the petrol tank.
    Some modern gas-turbine aero engines use water-injection for maximum power at takeoff. Various naval and railway external-combustion rigs are improved by steam injection.

  2. jaguar

    jaguar Well-Known Member

    If you have an expansion chamber and you made it to inject into the header of the exhaust pipe then it would just lower the rpm range of the pipe powerband unless you turned it off when increasing into the high rpm range. Doing it that way broadens the engines powerband.
  3. lazylightning@mail.r

    lazylightning@mail.r Active Member

    That sounds like a great mod too! I had been thinking of adding an injection of liquid oxygen laden fuel or water as a nitrous like boost on demand. Then there is always a tiny bit of hydrazine/ammonia nitrate, a terribly powerful liquid explosive. The water injection sounds really good though. Good and user friendly ;-) A small electric motor pump for the injection/spraying sounds really good because it will allow you to control the amount of water delivered at certain rpm's, via electronic control. Maybe it would be a good mechanism to find the proper needle/jet diameter to restrict the flow at some point.

    Now lets consider water as a fuel. AS many know, there exist catalysts and electronic systems with specilly tuned resonance cell/chambersand temperatures to frequencies to allow the splitting of water into hydrogen with very little miliamps of electricity. This is complicated though and perhaps unneccesary. I've read some material about the dissasociation of oxygen and hydrogen at temperatures higher than 450 C and perhaps this might be part of the power increase mechanism involved with water injection. The mere fact that the water mist may be immediately turned into overheated steam (to some degree depending on conditions), could lead us to believe that part of the trick is in steam power. Like as in locomotive.

    There is little reason to believe that mainstream science and industry would not try to cover up energy technology advances during the industrial era preceeding internet. Internet gives us a handle to hold on with because the shear numbers of people tinkering and sharing on youtube and so on will create some deterence to those that think they should assasinate inventors for the sake of protecting oil and gas. The downside is the large amount of snake oil men, scammers and perhaps just provocatures that try to present and or sell fake technologies/kits, etc.. If using water is interesting to anyone, then they should take time to study the technology of GEET, invented by David Pantone. I'm not sure his engines are really applicable for all purposes since they can basically work at a certain rpm. But running an engine on almost any liquid is kind of appealing in some cases. A generator for a hybrid electric car for example. Besides the GEET technology, there have been a number of other attempts to modify typical water using magnets to achieve a hydrogen/oxygen liquid fuel. I can't vouch for this, but it seems to me that by ionizing the water and affecting it with magnetism at the same time could seriously change it's properties and perhaps in a convenient manner for internal combustion engine fuel. One thing is for sure, it couldn't hurt to try. I would add the small amount of liquid oxygen to the water just before ionizing and magnetism(strong and spinning). There was a fellow that made a torsion field device that imprinted the innebriating properties of alchohol onto de-ionized(chemicals) water. The water would actually make people drunk. Also, there would be a question of which water to start with to turn it into a fuel, or try. De-ionizing it of chemical ions would be a start and perhaps distillation. We have an institute here that has created a special kind of "lite" water that has all kinds of amazing health benefits. I know that simply words and music have a great affect on how water crystalizes into snow or ice when quickly cooled in the prescence of liquid nitrigen. Also cycles of freezing and thawing has some effect as well. Theres alot of things to try or combine in experiments with changing properties of water. I know there are also special magnetic treatment devices for putting on fuel or gas lines that supposedly increase BTU output of the fuel that is burned. A cavitation generator would be something to look into to. Spinnig rotors, or discs with holes drilled through them create cavitation which is what happens when vacuum bubbles appear and then implode onto themselves creating temperatures higher than on the suns surface. That in itself can bring about nuclear transmutation of elements. I have a colleauge that worked with one institute and they had created such a cavitational generator and then added chemical compounds to the water before cavitating. The result was the appearence of different elements that they had not added. Transmutaion, though cavitational forces can hardly be called low energy nuclear reaction. Not really nuclear, but thermal and not low energy, but high energy.

    The trick might be in some yet unknown catalyst though. A small amount of some kind of nanoparticles that turns water into perfect liquid fuel..

    So for our purposes, I would say that distilling and freezing and magnetic methods would be within our capabilities. I am not sure how much time liquid oxygen could sit saturating water or gasoline before it excesses would evaporate. A small pressure sealed flask might be required to store it for injection on demand -to keep it from evaporating out of the mix.
  4. butre

    butre Well-Known Member

    I'd love to do intake side water injection, but as you see I don't exactly have room for it in my intake tract
    I thought about injecting it after the reeds but I feel like that would just pump fuel into the water tank every downstroke.

    I wonder about simply injecting it before the carburetor, sort of like one of those top hat nitrous systems.
  5. jaguar

    jaguar Well-Known Member

    if it relies on vacuum then it needs to be after the carb, and if relying on a water pump then before the carb will do.
    T it into that black hose.
  6. butre

    butre Well-Known Member

    a pressurized tank with a trigger would work every bit as good, but I'm thinking homemade water pump driven off a sprocket with a centrifugal clutch so it only kicks in at high rpms would be a fun project. overcomplicated, but should be bulletproof, and if desired could be sold as a bolt on kit
  7. butre

    butre Well-Known Member

    for your vacuum idea, float controlled valve on a small tank fed by a secondary tank sounds like a carburetor to me. 2 carbs in the same line should do the trick. you'll just have to have 2 tanks, which you'd have needed anyway
  8. HeadSmess

    HeadSmess Well-Known Member

    ultrasonic water fogger.

    wonder if you could drive the piezo directly from the ignition somehow or tap into it via a line transformer and a tank circuit?

    spraying the stuff is too hard... maybe.

    rather than a spraybar you need a lil venturi inside the intake... sorta like the baby throats when you crack open some quad barrel holleys...

    suck it up rather than pump it in. still pretty hard to get the stuff to vaporise right... heat it up with a few turns of copper tubing in the fins :) only turn on when hot...

    simplest test is just that...get one of those misters, preferably a brass one, start soldering to the steel intake manifold.. mount a lever, cable to it, squeeze for a squirt...iunno.

    isnt there going to have to be some mixture changes being made?

  9. HeadSmess

    HeadSmess Well-Known Member

    can we start a new thread on keely and such forth rather than put it in this one?

    im with the theme, theres plenty of tech thats supressed so we can be herded around like turkeys... but this is not the thread to say so!

    this is merely using water as an additive for performance enhancement...cus its legal still, unlike some things that are better left unsaid... :detective:
  10. jaguar

    jaguar Well-Known Member

    go ahead and start another thread for exotic modifications.

    Ultrasonic foggers are for ponds and produce too much. Ultrasonic humidifiers may work but they run on 60W AC.
  11. butre

    butre Well-Known Member

    I think I like the idea of a pressurized container best. seems like it would be the simplest way to do it
  12. jaguar

    jaguar Well-Known Member

    Here's my idea of a working system:
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
  13. HeadSmess

    HeadSmess Well-Known Member

    not exotic. esotoric.

    i was referring to the long post with the conspiracy theories and geet etc...

    an ultrasonic water fogger can be made from a piezo speaker and can consume whatever the designer designs it to consume, which then controls the output, as well as other factors such as water cleanliness, age of transducer, shape of waveform being applied... the only important factor is the frequency one drives it at. wrong frequency=no fog
  14. butterbean

    butterbean Well-Known Member

    Before I moved to 4 strokes, I considered an IV drip into the exhaust header. I don't know how good that would work, but its an idea and it would be easy to control the flow with an inline shutoff valve or an electronically controlled valve would be even better. A mixture of water and alcohol would be even better. Also, if you insulate the header and chamber, it greatly increases the effectiveness of water injection and decreases the effect it has on the powerband.
  15. mikedabomb

    mikedabomb Member

    I'm interested in doing an injection system (alcohol, oil, +water, maybe nitrous) and I came across these affordable misting nozzles. http://fogco.com/product-category/nozzles-2/standard-mist-nozzles/ Don't know the shipping but $2.50 each. I wonder what size orifice would be needed?

    I plan on hooking up a spray bottle to my handlebars and leading some tubing (vinyl?) to these small misting nozzles, which I'd tap into the intake

    Where on the intake should the nozzle be, close to head? I know it'd do best spraying downward but does it matter how close the spray is to the cylinder?
  16. jaguar

    jaguar Well-Known Member

    thanks for the nozzle source.
    I just tried a 15gph pump and it didn't create enough pressure to create a spray through a .7mm hole.
    I'm waiting to hear back from the place that sells the nozzles as to what kind of pressure is needed to make a fine mist with one of their nozzles.
  17. mikedabomb

    mikedabomb Member

    If I come through with what I plan to do I'll buy the largest nozzle from fogco.com and report back with results some time in December. I'd guess that nozzles with < 0.05 in. orifice would be useless when hooked up to spray bottle pressures. If all else fails, I'll use a spray bottle nozzle that can provide the finest mist. I don't know how I'd actuate the system if the spray bottle assembly is not on the handlebars though.

    Is a fine mist really necessary? I see people pour water into their intake on youtube but their engine bogs instead of revving higher...I suppose this is from the excess of water causing too much of an effect?
  18. jaguar

    jaguar Well-Known Member

    your spray bottle idea is really bad because a momentary dose of water vapor will only give a momentary benefit (if the amount of water is correct). But that's being overly positive. It would most probably cause a power reduction due to too much water being sprayed in. Think of how little gasoline is being ingested into the engine and then think of 1/20th that amount being the right water amount. The right amount of water for a 66cc engine would be very very small.
  19. mikedabomb

    mikedabomb Member

    I'm not focused on just water

    I don't think the water would need to be so precisely tuned when paired with alcohol in the mix. People run anywhere from 20-50% methanol to water in their alcohol injection kits and the fluctuations in water do not have any pronounced negative effects, I guess the water's influence is easily dwarfed or overpowered by alcohol as the alcohol boosts the power of the engine well enough to easily overcome any excess water. Feed the engine different juices, and it will respond differently to the different flavors. An engine won't run well if you take a good pre-existing tune and add a non-combustible liquid to it. Diluting the liquid with a fuel, however, should allow for a lot more leeway to achieve a good tune.

    You speak of the spray bottle system providing a momentary benefit at best. All I need is momentary. Water/methanol injection is never meant to be constant in nearly all practical applications IMO. In an engine, alcohol and water injection is a supplementary system that gets used every once in awhile during special occasions, like when it's track day or you're tryna haul @ss where you're standard power ain't enough so you will use alcohol/water alone or in conjunction with advanced timing, boost, nitrous, or a combo of those three to achieve more power as it's needed.

    We have different goals and there are different challenges associated with each. Trying to use the water at all times to boost engine power would definitely need some precise tuning of the flow of water in such a small engine, I agree. I think it's less of a concern when a fuel is added to even things out, as I've seen with youtube's videos on water/methanol injection. I have no doubt that we can get our systems to work, but the main difference in my system will be that it (hopefully) will be able to run off of very short, inaccurate doses of my juice. I hope y'all can understand what I put down, it took a long time to describe all these different circumstances and differences. Please ask for clarification if needed.
  20. sbest

    sbest Active Member

    Jaguar, this is a topic I have some familiarity.
    Back in the late 70s and early 80s we could not get high octane fuel here. I drove a 1970 Ford Torino with an 11:1 compression 351C engine which taught me a lot about how to run on high compression. Water injection, proper squish and the right cam got that engine running well on regular. I ran water injection on motorcycles as well, both 4 stroke and a 1974 CR250 2 stroke.

    There are some things I can help with in this work:
    Water in the intake tract does NOT add to combustion pressure by expansion. What it does is diminish detonation and balance cylinder pressure over a longer period by eliminating spikes. The water cools the intake tract (from 300f to 30f on a Cummins turbo) and the charge in the cylinder. The water tempers the combustion to eliminate the pressure spike and turn it into a longer push. The water lowers the combustion, plug and exhaust valve temperatures and keeps cylinder temps in safe bounds during full throttle blasts, like on aircraft take off or during a diesel tractor pull.

    The need for water injection is not RPM dependant, it is load dependant. It tends to be greatest at the torque peak and often lack of vacuum parallels the need for water. This means that vacuum is not much help in drawing water into the engine. I used a vacuum switch to turn on my washer pump system on the 1970 351C. On a turbo system boost pressure can pressurize the tank and push water into the airstream ahead of the turbo but will erode the vanes somewhat. Toward peak RPM the need for water diminishes.

    You are right about the water cooling down the exhaust and affecting the tune of the pipe. I have no practical experience with that but the theory seems right. As far as the combustion heat breaking down the atomic bonds of the water, we are nowhere near that sort of temperatre, catalyst or not. Water does not make power, it tames it.

    The water does not need to be fogged or misted. A steady stream seemed to work just as well as any sprayer I tested. Sprayers do reduce the intake temperature better but still needed large droplet size. Pressure is not needed unless it is to get more volume. I have made gravity fed systems that worked fine.

    The methanol is only there to keep the system from freezing. Turbo diesels often use cutting oil as a high pressure pump lubricant in their water injection systems. The methanol is inconsequential as a fuel, it is the mechanical cooling of water vapourizing that does the trick. Same with a turbine engine. Cooling water allows you the tighten up the nozzle and boost the pressure before overheating anything. Too much water will overcool the combustion and put it out, killing power.

    One nice side benefit to water injection is a carbon free cylinder head and often the exhaust tract too.