NE-5 shake-down cruse findings...

Discussion in 'Whizzer Motorized Bicycles' started by del, Jul 24, 2008.

  1. del

    del Guest

    Howdy, friends,

    Yesterday I got the odometer on the Whizzer up to a whole 15 miles total... So I figured it was time to go over the bike to make sure things were OK. I found the usual loose bits and minor stuff. But then I noticed black speckles on the aft end of the front fender, front fork, and forward frame. The source of the oily/sooty deposits was quickly traced to the exhaust manifold / exhaust pipe junction. So, I pulled the spark plug. Sure enough, it was covered in black stuff.

    Now, the questions... Is this just the results of the rings having yet to seat in the cylinder so I'm burning a bit of oil, and is normal? Or is it what I've suspected, that I'm still running too rich (even though I have the needle all the way down to full lean)? Or is it something that I've failed to think about?

    Any thoughts?
    --del
     

  2. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Del,
    First let me give you a little advice concerning the exhaust pipe/manifold junction. On my personal bikes I remove the small allen set screw in the manifold and replace it with a 6 MM allen bolt [1" long] & nut. I tighten the screw and the use the nut to lock it against the manifold. As a rule most, if not all, companies jet the carburetors on the rich side. The earlier NE motors had a #95 main jet and was later dropped to an #88. Most owners reduce the size even more to adjust for their area, and use either a #84 or #86. You are correct that the motor needs more time to "break-in" and will settle down somewhat after the first 100 miles, however if the spark plug is very black it wouldn't hurt to lower the main jet size early to make the bike easier to ride. Contact your local Whizzer dealer to order smaller jets if needed.

    Have fun,
    Whizzer OuterBanks LTD
    A North Carolina Corporation
    Quenton
     
  3. del

    del Guest

    Yep, Quenton, I've read about your use of a bolt and lock nut to hold down the exhaust pipe. And it's on my list of things to do.

    Anyhow, today I spent some "quality time" with some wrenches and the bike. Among other things I took the carb apart to finally determine what main jet was originally installed. There was no number on the jet that I could see. And when I pulled the jet to look at the rest of it, still nothing... So this thing seems to be a jet of unknown diameter. The jet isn't a huge part. And I looked at it from all angles, under different lights, and still no number. Am I missing something? Is the number hidden somewhere?

    The experience left me thinking that I need a few jets of known diameter, around the diameter that I might need for an altitude of around 400-1000 feet above sea level. That way I can get the mixture "dialed-in". Does that make sense?

    And, Quenton, I _would_ go to a local Whizzer dealer in a flash, but most all the dealers around here seem to be running a retirement or part-time business; selling a few bikes a year and not having a stock of parts. So can I order some jets from you, or someone else on this forum? Or should I go direct to the folks in Texas?

    The horrible truth here is that I seem to be having dang near as much fun working on the Whizzer as I do riding it....

    But the best news is your advice that I put more miles on it....

    --del
     
  4. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Del, Feel free to order parts from me if your local dealer doesn't stock parts, I don't mind supplying parts and keep a large inventory on the shelves. The original jets aren't marked, so don't strain your eyes looking for the number. So far it looks like the 95 weren't marked but some, if not all, of the 88 were. I just ordered more jets today, but still have a good supply in stock if needed. For every 2000 feet above sea level reduce the jet size, so at under a thousand feet above sea level I would try an 84 or possibly an 82. Most of your riding will be using from 1/4 to 3/4 throttle, and therefore the needle jet will do most of the work, but if the main jet is too large it will effect the operation of the entire carburetor.
    I agree with you that it is a lot of fun "tinkering" as well as riding a Whizzer.

    Have fun,
    Whizzer OuterBanks LTD
    A North Carolina Corporation
    Quenton
     
  5. del

    del Guest

    Roger that, Quenton,

    My wife read somewhere that as we grow older, we become more like ourselves. That seems to be true. When I was a kid on the farm , unable to afford a Whizzer. I took delight in re-building Briggs engines. tweaking the mechanical bits of my bicycle, and even crawling into the guts of a combine in August to help my father replace bearings that had worn out...

    So, these days, I still enjoy making things work. And it's even more fun now that I'm a retired old f*** and can take the time to tinker.

    If your phone number on the Whizzer web site dealer list is correct, and you plan to be around your shop on Monday, I'll give you a call and order some jets.

    And, one more question.. If I get rid of the intake restrictor plate, will that effect which jet I should use? I suppose I could just try it and see...

    --del
     
  6. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    Restrictor plate

    Hi Del
    I can answer the restrictor plate question. It is very important that the plate not be removed. It is a heat barrier for the carb. Without the restrictor plate the fuel could boil in the carb. This is not good. The opening can be opened up to match the diameter of the intake on the cylinder for better performance. Be warned that this will void your warranty. Hope this helps.

    Jim
     
  7. del

    del Guest

    Roger that, Jim...

    I'm fully aware of the value of the insulation provided by the restrictor plate. And know that messing with it will void the warranty.

    I've thought of several ways around the insulation problem, but have yet to try any of them. However, my fundamental question remains....

    If I make the intake less restricted how will that effect carb jetting? I'm of two minds on that question. Sometimes I think that the off-idle mixture is controlled by the main jet and the carb venturi, so getting rid of the restriction won't change the mixture. And sometimes I think that more air coming through the carb will mean that I'll need to make the mixture richer.

    Is either thought right? Or should I just try it and see? Surely others have gone down this path before...

    --del
     
  8. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Del, I will answer your questions in detail, but either later today or early tomorrow. I will go into detail about the carburetor used on the Whizzer, and will also answer your questions about jetting if the restrictor plate is modified. I need to know which model year you have [ I should remember, but I don't], and is it a 24" or 26", and manual or automatic clutch. Have you made any other changes to the motor, IE "mill the head", copper head gasket, mushroom or stock lifters, and which exhaust muffler insert you are using.
    I am open 7 days a week, and usually up until at least 11 PM eastern time if you need help, just ask. However I am going to watch "Robin Hood" on BBC from 9 to 10PM tonight.

    Have fun,
    Whizzer OuterBanks LTD
    A North Carolina Corporation
    Quenton
    252-475-0406 cell
     
  9. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    If you reduce the restriction to air flow, that should not change the mixture of the air and fuel. You still need the correct mixture weather you have high volume or not. Reducing the restriction will help performance especially on the top end. I have been testing many different jets in both a 22mm carb and a 26mm carb. I had problems with my engine stumbling at low rpm. It turned out to be the pilot jet. (slow speed jet) was way to small. I ordered a new stock jet from Whizzer and the problem was gone.
    The off idle mixture is controlled by the needle. The way I understand these carbs is,
    From idle to about 2000 rpms the fuel is controlled by the pilot jet.
    From 2000 to about 75%-80% throttle the fuel is controlled by the needle.
    From 80% to Wide open throttle the fuel is controlled by the main jet. However like Quenton said if the main jet is too big, it will mess with everything.
    My 22mm carb uses a stock pilot jet and a #88 main jet. I am at 480 feet above sea level. My engine is not stock so your best bet might be a #84 or #82 main jet.
    I'm sure Quenton will shine more light on this for you. He helped me with my jetting problems.
    Hope the helps.

    Jim

    P.S. I have the needle set with the clip in the second notch from the top on my 22mm carb.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2008
  10. del

    del Guest

    Good, Quenton,

    I'll give you a shout, most likely Monday afternoon if that's OK..

    The bike is an '07 NE-5 and remains stock (for now). It's a 24" with an auto-magic clutch (your advice on speeding up the clutch break-in process has been a great help..) The exhaust insert is stock. And, as far as I can tell, meets your specs for what makes a "good one". It's flat on both ends.

    Looking forward to your discussion of carbs and jets..

    --del
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2008
  11. del

    del Guest

    Good info, Jim, Thanks,

    I'm leaning toward your thought-direction too. The mixture otta be set by the carb even when there's more flow through it. But we'll see what Quenton has to say..

    What changes have you made to your engine? I'm thinking that milling the head to get more efficient burning in the combustion chamber should be the first major mod on my to-do list..??

    --del
     
  12. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Del,
    Here is some important information about carburetors, and a few suggestions worth considering. There is an optional manifold kit offered as an accessory/upgrade through Whizzer dealers. The kit contains an aluminum manifold [approx 1" long], two 6 MM studs, and two nuts. The kit addresses several options, first it moves the carburetor towards the rear of the motor and provides better clearance between the frame & carburetor. Secondly it isolates the carburetor from the cylinder to lower the operating temperature of the carburetor. A side effect is slightly better carburetor performance [runs cooler]. Now a few words about the kit, first of all the manifold is too long for maximum power & top end, secondly the center hole seldom matches up with the intake port in the cylinder, but if you want a better running Whizzer the kit is a good choice. The manifold kit was standard equipment on the 2008 NE and Ambassador models. You must also use the restrictor plate, because if removed the studs are too long, and the spacer also helps cool the intake system. The factory places the restrictor between the manifold & the carburetor, but I personally re-locate the restrictor plate between the cylinder and the manifold on my Whizzers.
    Often reality differs from theory, as is often the case concerning carburetors. During my motorcycle racing days I learned a lot about carburetors, and more importantly I discovered everyone has their own concepts and theories. I am so glad that "Americans" always think bigger is better, because about half of the races I won wasn't because I had talent, it was because my competitors elected to equip their motors with carburetors way too large or main jet the size of a house. The only reason I brought this up was because, most [99%] people think when the air flow is increased [opening restrictor]that the main jet should be larger, when in fact it should be reduced, and often the needle jet will need to be dropped one notch. Jim [RdKryton] was 100% correct about the air/fuel mixture remaining the same even with changes in the restriction, in fact isn't the slide the same as a restriction until it is opened? Another item that is confussing about carburetors is theory tells us about the various sections of the carburetor and thier role during throttle locations. Real life facts disclose that the various jet do in fact effect each other. For example if the main jet is way to large theory says it won't matter until 3/4 to open throttle, but tests show it can make the entire carburetor act stupid above 1/4 throttle. The pilot jet stops doing its job at approx 1/5 throttle, but if way off, it can disrupt the carburetor to almost 1/2 throttle.

    The most common setting for the Whizzer 22 MM carburetor are: Float level 22 MM, completely stock 2008 NE #84 to #86 main jet, all other NE motors would most likely use an #82 or #84 jet. If the head is milled, and re-worked most NE motors would use an #86 to #88. One of my Hot NE motors is drinking fuel through a #130 main jet, so the range can vary greatly with modifications. The majority of 22 MM carburetors have the needle jet with the clip in the center groove, or the second grove from the top [leaner]. Most air/fuel idle mixture screws are best around 1 - 1/2 turn out, but have seen a few with different settings, and a stopped up pilot jet will cause the adjustment to be off.
    RdKryton was also correct about the importance of the needle jet, and its effect from 1/4 to 3/4 throttle, looks like he knows about Whizzer carburetors.

    Now a few comments about the symptoms.
    In a lean condition the engine will surge and sometimes ping under acceleration. The engine will also be "cold-blooded" (hard to start and keep running) but will run better when hot. The spark plug will look white or light gray. The engine may spit back or sneeze through the carburetor once in awhile. If the engine gets hot and doesn't pull well it could indicate a lean condition and the engine wants more fuel. If the exhaust pipe turns blue at the manifold, too lean!
    If the engine is running rich the throttle response will be fuzzy and not too quick. The engine will burble, miss and blow black smoke. It will start easy but will run funny when fully warmed up. The plug will be dark. When the engine burbles on the top end come down one jet size at a time until it winds out all the way. If the engine seems sluggish and lumpy or wants to load up on the bottom end the mixture is TOO RICH. If adjusting the low speed mixture screw helps a little but doesn't cure the problem completely, you might need to clean the pilot jet. When the engine runs smooth with the adjustment screw about one and a half turns out from the seat you have it
    Hope this information is helpful,

    Whizzer OuterBanks LTD
    A North Carolina Corporation
    Quenton
     
  13. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    Hi again.
    My engine is an 2000 WC-1 that has been upgraded to an NE5 with the help and expertise of Quenton. The only part of the engine that is still a WC-1 is the case and crankshaft. Everything else is now an NE5. The head is milled .070 and I have a hi-lift cam and mushroom lifters. The cam has been advanced one tooth counter clockwise from stock. I am using the aluminum intake spacer cut down to around a 1/2 inch. The spacer has been tapered to match the carb on one end and the intake of the cylinder on the other end. The carb I am running now is a 26mm. I am using a #110 jet with outstanding results in this 26mm carb. It is amazing how much power these little engines can produce. I have installed an autoclutch and I have the rear drum brake setup to install. I think that's it. lol

    Jim
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2008
  14. del

    del Guest

    A fairy came while I was asleep...

    First, let me thank all who have helped get the NE-5 running bettter. I've learned a lot....

    I won't say anything more about what happened than this... Or how it came to be... It must have been that a fairy came during the night... But the intake restrictor plate got opened up to the full bore of the carb and intake manifold....

    The bike runs a bunch better now. But it's still too danged rich.

    Now it's time to "dial-in" the main jet.

    --del
     
  15. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    The next thing you will want to do after you get the mixture correct is mill the head .070 and reinstall with a copper head gasket. In fact I would do that first then dial in the main jet. I have the needle set in the second groove from the top. That keeps my mid range throttle from being to rich. You may want to try that before you change any jets. Most of your running should be at part throttle when breaking in the engine anyway.
    Enjoy the ride.
    Jim
     
  16. del

    del Guest

    Yep, Jim,

    I finally got the idea that higher compression means more efficient fuel burning, with the added benefit of more power.

    But, for now, I just want to get the Whizzer running right without "serious" modifications. And, I need to spend more time riding (and breaking it in) instead of sitting down in the basement setting up the mill...

    --del
     
  17. del

    del Guest

    Holy Horse Hocky!!

    Howdy, folks,

    This afternoon I took the Whizzer out for a ride with the intake restrictor opened up. What difference! Along with Quenton's great advice about breaking-in the clutch, the bike now has some decent acceleration off the line. And it goes scary-fast. I chickened out when the spedo hit around 40 MPH. But there was still more throttle left...

    But, even better, now, the idle speed and idle mixture screws have the effect their supposed to. She idles like a dream..

    From here, it's on to getting the main jet dialed-in. And from there? We'll see....

    Ain't it nice when something you do works??

    --del
     
  18. RdKryton

    RdKryton Active Member

    Quenton is very knowledgeable about these engines. If anyone can make it run great he can. His help, parts, and advice have made mine run better than I could ever imagine. Even with the belts new and super tight, if I go WOT above 3000rpms I can make the belts squeal. I never knew these little engines had so much power in them just ready to be unleashed. Very cool. lol

    Jim
     
  19. n8ygn

    n8ygn Member

    ambassador ll

    Quenton. I have the 08 ambassador ll model and I can only get about 4600rpm. I have seen several guys say they are get 6000 or better. How would I go about increaseing this. Yes I believe the head needs milled at first I noticed bubbles around the top of the head. I ran for a while and tightened them again stopped that. I have access to Mills and lathes so that is not a problem. Will milling my head help on the more hp motor of the ambassadorll? Also I am adding a picture of the belt system on mine for some of the guy to see. I believe it was Egor who was interested in that. I must admit loading pictures on this site is causing me problems.
    Dane

    Ps I still have less than 20 miles on bike so I know it needs more breakin.
     

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  20. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Dane,
    Sadly I wasn't in agreement with the new head design installed on the Ambassador II and most likely will be on the new NE-R. My thoughts about spark plug placement and combustion chamber design are in agreeement with the thousands of past engineers, you know, like M.Benz. General Motors, Chrysler, Ford, B & S, Norton, Triumph, Ducati, Harley, Cushman, Clinton, Honda, Yamaha, Kaw., Suzuki, etc, etc. I figured many thousands of past "brains" have tried different locations for the spark plug, chamber design, cooling fins, head gaskets, etc, so why would I think I am smarter than all the folks that have designed and improved the internal combustion motor over the last 100 years. However I have recently been told the engineers in Tiawan know more about head design than all of mankind since the late 1800s [not].
    I could be wrong, but ALL my motors easily turn somewhere between 6000 and 9000 [8820] RPMs, including the motor on my Ambassador [I guess mine is now called Ambassador I]. However to be fair, you really need to put a lot more miles on your motor to see if the new design will produce enough power to take your MOTORCYCLE up to the advertized speed of 40 MPH.
    I would advise you to consider trying an earlier production head, but I don't think it will fit if your cylinder has the new "valve seat block" installed. The new design from Tiawan doesn't allow earlier versions of the head, or head gasket to fit correctly because of the very, very, very, small area between the block and the center rear head bolt [I guess it is less than 1/8"]. I know a lot of changes have been made over the last several months, but just don't know which production motors are using which parts. Please don't take my comments wrong, and consider them as degrading other people's ideas, it is just my thoughts about the internal combustion motor are in line with thousands of past engineers.
    Another issue to consider is the amount of power it will take to operate the CVT system, I have been told [by a lot of stupid old engineers], that the CVT can consume up to 3 HP on some motors, so I will say that I am happy that my Ambassador I uses the automatic clutch. Once again, please don't take my comments as condeming other ideas, just passing along information I believe to be true about motor design. Because of the weight, the Ambassador also needs more power, and I am sure your version weighs more than mine because of the CVT system. I can make mine reach 40 [maybe a little past]MPH, but it takes extra effort to do so.
    Hope this information is helpful, and I will gladly help you make your ride more durable and maybe a little faster in the process.

    Once again, this information, and my comments are not entended to effect any products or companies.
    Have fun,
     
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