Power Generation - Time to Get Serious

[augidog]

the "dual-duty" motor on the scooter engines isn't really what it appears, either...it's recommended that you only electric start a warm engine...and they (scooters) ship with a battery charger, wonder why?

imo...anything big enuff to turn the engine is gonna come with too much drag at our HP range.

while i'm by no means trying to discourage discussion and ideas about proprietary setups (ie jackshaft) i'm still encouraged by discussion of a (universal) smaller lights-only setup...sometimes we shoot for the moon when all we need is the stratosphere...and attaining a minimum standard that we could safely recommend to any mb'er would be quite the accomplishment.

 

[jimraysr]

Lighting / Generator / Starter

Not sure what you reference is in the statement "No one has ever done what you would like, Not motorcycles?

Any way I have a 60s / 70s Yamaha 175 trail that has a generator (around the crank accessory side) that is motorized for starting. It was meant for their 125 model, but as the bottom end was the same for both the 125 and the 175, I put a 175 piston and cylinder on a 125 before taking delivery. It was great for our night trailbike riding as it had lights if the plug fowled or you killed the engine and when stopped when mag lighting gets very dim. I helped the electric start with a compression release in the second plug hole in the head.


I jumped in to the lighting thing and decided to buy a HID kit from Topeak. It is a 10 watt / 7 watt which provides 190 (Lux/5M)/47 (Lux/10M). As I did not do well in optical lab in school, I don't know what that relates to in lumens. Also don't know what a lumen looks likes as well. )

It comes with a yellow filter to use in town so you don't blind the the cagers. An arc lamp produces bocue more light per watt over halogon. The 4400 mah 14.4 volt Lit-Ion battery give 5 hours + 30 min. reserve.

While that is more light and for longer than I think I will ever need, I never have liked to run off batteries. I want a single source of energy. In this case gas.

Over on the DIY Jack Shaft thread, I suggested running an alternator directly off of the crank. Machining a shaft, threaded on one end to screw into the tapped hole (replace of the screw that retains the small gear) on the clutch side of the 2 strokes. Then through a hole cut in the clutch cover with a seal drive a high speed alternator mounted to the engine.

The reason for putting it on the right side is I have a pull start on the mag side.

There are such alternators for large RC model airplane engines, but way too expensive. So the quest is to find the components to make one or buy one meant for an other application.

HS 4 strokes is now offering a lighting mag in addition to their mag ignition. The four lighting coils make I believe 6 volts, but don't know the wattage.

Normally these small general purpose engines have the mag and lighting coil under the flywheel, but here they chose to move the mag outside and add the lighting. It doesn't even come with a regulator as exported. Still a possibility as it peaks at 7K like many of the 2 strokes.

Comment on the scrub tire generator. I remember that you could really feel the friction when you had it on the tire. Consider also they are not built for 20 - 30 - 40 MPH speeds on a bicycle.

Plenty of stuff out there if we can just find it.

Jim

For a long time small garden tractors used a starter/generator. These are not permanant magnet type devices. I have a starter/generator on my Sears 1968 Custom.
Manufactures went to a much smaller perm. magnet starter motor and a small alternator with a regulator (not all had a regulator)- much more efficient, better starting and cheaper.
Your issue would be the large battery that you would need for starting, the different gear reduction needed for starting verses generating power.
Note that NO ONE has ever done what you would like.
Not motorcycles, tractors, outboard motors- zip.

 

[augidog]

Comment on the scrub tire generator...Consider also they are not built for 20 - 30 - 40 MPH speeds on a bicycle.

don't i know it...and boy do they ever shatter when they've had enuff.

so what we need is a more robust motor & a larger roller that rides across the tire instead of on the sidewall, i think that gravity & a light spring would be all that's needed...anyway...

Plenty of stuff out there if we can just find it.

prezactly!

onward & upward, eh?

 

[Fabian]

Quote: "sometimes we shoot for the moon when all we need is the stratosphere..."

The greatest modern day (and possibly "the" greatest) president America ever had (as opposed to George.W.Bush) said that he would put a man on the moon before the decade was out.

We only have to put a starter/generator prototype on the moon; not having to worry about the marketing issues of how to get a manned crew in a tin can through the van allen belt radiation zone without the required 6 feet of lead shielding the capsule never had to protect those space pioneers from getting fried.

We just send that starter/generator straight through the hot zone.

If the President said it could be done, then i'm making a starter/generator combo with help from "NASA online", even if i need to get Stanley Kubrick productions to shoot video footage of the thing in action.

Fabian

 

[210061741]

An effective cheap soloution

Ok ive spent my day studying Wind Power Generation.

Ther are lots of diy.

Heres where im at now.

http://www.otherpower.com/toymill.html#vernvz

DC#1

Since a DC motor when driven acts as a generator,
and it's easy - put a rotor on a DC motor, mount it, and let 'er rip!
However, the results are usually disappointing as far as what loads you can run.
The problem is that most DC hobby motors are made to spin at very high RPMs,
many being rated 5000-10000 RPM. To get the motor's rated voltage as output,
you'll have to spin it about 20% faster than its rated RPM

DC#2

If the motor has more than 2 leads coming out, it's the wrong kind and can't be used!

DC#3
The voltage you get using the cordless drill at low speed is probably the most you can ever expect from your project. The hand-spun voltage will be more typical. Compare your numbers to the following MINIMUM voltage requirements for some common loads: Red LED: 1.7v White LED: 3.6v Flashlight bulb: 3v to 6v Tiny water pump: 3v to 6v Battery charging: Voltage of battery, plus at least 1 volt, then another 1 volt for the diode


Keep in mind that if you want to charge batteries with your experiment, you'll need to put a diode in the line to keep the batteries from just spinning the motor-and the diode will drop your output voltage by about a volt.

Motor
The motor is the core. Without it, forget about the rest. You are looking for a permanent magnet motor. Why permanent magnets? Because they work well as generators, which is what we want here. Also, they don't normally require high rpms to get some usable power out of them. To find out if your motor might work, look on the label and find the rpms. Then, find the working voltage. Divide rpms by voltage to get rpms per volt. The more rpms per volt, the faster THE MOTOR needs to turn to charge a battery, which means you will need more RPM before it will start charging. So, go for low rpms per volt.

- New, ICON Part #M-215393 permanent
magnet motor. Originally made to power a
treadmill. CW rotation recommended due
to shaft threading, motor itself is
reversible. Would also make an excellent
DC generator. Lead end of rotor has 0.29˝
dia. stub shaft for cooling fan (not included)
for prolonged use. 13˝ long leads with
female spade terminals.

SPECIFICATIONS
- Power 2.6/1.5 HP- Duty treadmill
- Voltage 130/95 DC- Mount 2 holes in side
- Amperage 15/11.75 Amps- Shaft 17 mm dia. x 1˝
- Speed 9200/6900 RPM w/ ½˝-13 x ¾˝
- Rotation reversible LH threaded end
(see note above)- Size 4˝ dia. x 6⅞˝ long
- Enclosure open- Shpg. 10 lbs

$29.95

Now with that we can make some power.
Te question is how much hp will it use.
Can someone figure that?

**** if it is usable and wouldn't consume much power.
We could create one h*ll of a hybrid. LOL

Anyway These are the motors Wind Power Generators are using.
Small Ones.
We should investigate this option

 

[210061741]

I think at 720 rpm we would generate 100V

@ 587.23 rpm we would generate 1 amp

so at 720 rpm we would generate 100v @ 1.22A = 122 watts.

That should do it.

But i need to verify i calculated the amps correct.

motor= 11.75 amps at 6900 rpm

6900 / 11.75 = 587.234 rpm

1 amp = 587.234 rpm
100 volts = 720.63 rpm

720.63 / 587.234 = 1.22

720 rpm = 1.22 A
720 rpm = 100 V
= 122 watts.

So as long as amps are proportinal to rpm this works.

Can someone VERIFY.

 

[augidog]

those numbers tell me that we'd be able to use a fairly large roller IF we're talkin' universal friction...

Fabian: i'm sorry if you think i'm being a naysayer...but one thing i precognized early was there is a huge disparity in specs amongst our contraptions & that it will eventually get in our way (imo)...when i talk about lighting, i AM talking about minimum standards because noone's really taken this anywhere in a couple of years now...and while we wait for us to do something, hardly anyone puts together a lighting system worth it's salt.

a recent visitor told me the same things about "doing it right" and "shooting high" and my reply was "yup, and what do you have for lighting now? nothing is what...so why not go for something minimal & simple while you work on your ideas?"

i'm not implying you have "nothing" but my point is: with the exception of the basic SLA-based setup and a coupla lights, we haven't come close to standardizing anything everyone can make use of. i recall that before we made it to the moon, we had several obvious steps to take.

the thing is, everything any of us accomplish can assist the next guy who can also contribute, but geez we haveta start somewhere, no? so, again, i'm not being discouraging, just realistic about what to expect with such a diverse crowd...but, if we're gonna get serious, we're gonna have to find a way to work together to achieve the basics so that some production/marketing genius can come along and make it available to the masses.

so, we find a suitable motor, work out the basic mechanics & circuitry...and then we improve on it, or specialize it for specific applications.

 

[210061741]

those numbers tell me that we'd be able to use a fairly large roller IF we're talkin' universal friction...

I believe we were talking Jackshaft and you were talking FRICTION.

Fabian: i'm sorry if you think i'm being a naysayer...but one thing i precognized early was there is a huge disparity in specs amongst our contraptions & that it will eventually get in our way (imo)...when i talk about lighting, i AM talking about minimum standards because noone's really taken this anywhere in a couple of years now...and while we wait for us to do something, hardly anyone puts together a lighting system worth it's salt.
...

Now this is interesting.
#1 There are no specs defined.
#2 Noone is taking it anywhere.

= Noone can make any money off of it.
= The guys with the skills and Equipment and Money
= They don't share there specs
= noone giong nowhere
= They can't make money They won't waste the time.

ALSO THERE ARE PLENTY OF BATTERY OPERATED LIGHTING SYSTEMS FOR BIKES.

INTERESTING SOME ARE RECHARGABLE.

So here is a good starting Point.
Get the best Rechargeable Bicycle Light You can Buy.
I've seen them as good as Motorcycle Headlights.
Plug It Into The Wall and Use Daily.

WAIT FOR US TO GIVE YOU THE ANSWERS.

Install our chargin system.

Live Forever and Ride Free.

a recent visitor told me the same things about "doing it right" and "shooting high" and my reply was "yup, and what do you have for lighting now? nothing is what...so why not go for something minimal & simple while you work on your ideas?"

the thing is, everything any of us accomplish can assist the next guy who can also contribute, but geez we haveta start somewhere, no? so, again, i'm not being discouraging, just realistic about what to expect with such a diverse crowd...but, if we're gonna get serious, we're gonna have to find a way to work together to achieve the basics so that some production/marketing genius can come along and make it available to the masses.

Now here i agree with you 100%
I just gave you the easy answer.
But i don't like Easy.
We do need to work together / Everyone specializes in something.


Oh and By The Way.
:batman: The super hero is here.
That production/mfg genius ..... YOU JUST MET HIM.

Now lets see where that puts us.

#1 Brightest Rechargable Bicycle Light Required.
Lets pick one and spec it out.
Buy it and use it wile we are working things out.
Plug it into the wall when batteries need recharged.

#2 Determine the number of volts required to charge the Battery.
= ((Voltage required by light +1 volt) X Number of Lights)) = Required Voltage to charge the system.

#3 Select Cheap Easily Mounted Motor capable of charging the system with minimal loss of HP.

#4 Determine Required Voltage Regulation Components.

#5 Buy Them.

#6 Determine Optimal Location in the DRIVETRAIN. " ie. JACKSHAFT"

#7 Find Cheap Bracket to Mount Motor

#8 Mount Motor to Bracket and Conect to JACKSHAFT with Belt.

#9 Run wiring to Rechargable Lights with proper voltage regulation.

#10 FIND BATTERY.

#11 LOL THERE ALLREADY IN THE LIGHTS.

Now we don't have to plug them in anymore.

This won't start your bike, i think that may have to be a seperate motor.
In theroy we could do it.
We need a motor that can produce high volts at low rpm.
And High Torque at Low Volts.
We also would need a RELAY in the Electrical Circut.
So we can tell the motor when to run and when to charge.
Could Very Well Be Doable.

Without the relay i think we would need to circuts.
One to Run the motor.
One to charge the battery. "remember the diode"
With Both of The Circuts Connected in Parallel.
We would be Running the Motor and Charging the Battery at the same time.
Now i don't think we can pull volts from the battery and charge it with the same motor at the same time.

At any rate LETS DO THIS.

SomeOne Figure out what is a Reasonable amout of light we need to produce.
Then we can figure out how much power to generate.

 

[210061741]

I like This.

Understanding Electricity-

If electricity were a fluid like water then:

Volts = PSI
Amps = GPM potential
Watts = GPM delivered
Wire size = Pipe size
Ohms = Friction losses due to length + diameter of pipe

With more PSI you can pump more fluid through smaller pipe.
That is why lower voltages require larger wire (larger pipe) size.

MORE:

Wire = Pipe
Capacitor = Rubber bladder
Resistor = Flow reducer
Diode = Check valve
Zener Diode = Faulty check valve
Transistor = Gate valve
Potentiometer = Diversion valve


Other stuff on the edge of explanation as a fluid -

Induction = Sponge
Magnetism = ?????

 

[210061741]

Nice Motor

Heres a sutiable dc motor.
$45.00