Triple Rewind of Unite 500W Motor

[safe]

Spiral Winding Error Identified

AussieJester posted this picture:

http://members.ii.net/~aussiejester/index/pictures/tn_motor_rewind_pic123.JPG

...and it was too small for me to see clearly enough to know for sure that he spiral wound the rewind. After blowing the picture up and looking closer the spiral winding error is very clear.

The problem was that the winds were shifted by one groove.

You would not detect this with a multimeter, but it will produce a motor that is useless.

Problem solved !!!

(however, with a thick layer of shellac embedded into the motor he's going to have a heck of a time getting the motor apart if he ever wants to try again)

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This error (identified) will produce a motor that:

Uses a lot of current.

Heats up really fast.

Produces very little power.



.

I was hoping that AussieJester got it right... now I feel a little guilty for not pressing this more before. If you go back and check I really did bring this up because it looked wrong back then, but AussieJester was confident he got it the right way. I did try to warn him... maybe about as much as Willy Wonka in the original movie?

(hate to waste an IMG tag, but it does drive home the point)

I'm sorry AussieJester... it was my fault for not getting you to realize that you had made a mistake earlier. As the "responsible one" I'll take the blame. Even if you were too stubburn to listen I should have stood my ground and called this a mistake from the moment I saw the photo.

So much time, so little to do.... uhhh strike that... reverse it...

 

[AussieJester]

Well i couldnt resist checking back to see how safe would be carrying on sure enough another graph and more fictional statements to support his cause...i now see why you were so hated and banned from Endless Sphere safe...your a lost cause. And safe PROBLEM NOT SOLVED as there is no problem to solve.

Firstly though duivendyk the STOCK wind is done with a AWG23 NOT AWG 19 as Safe reported it as being, actually if i recall correctly (depending which graph) he said the stock winds were both AWG 21 and AWG20 FACT two people other than safe WITH digital micrometer have measured the wire and it is DEFINITELY AWG23

As to the offset BWAHAHAHA god your so full of **** its not funny safe. THE WIND WAS FINE...Have another look when your sober. The timing HAHAH oh the timing...your are dead set on trying to convince everyone its something I have done...the timing was set on STOCK for the initial run was NOT altered till the day after i thought i best check it to see how far out it was as the performance was that woeful. OH..gearing...i have dropped down TEN teeth on my front drive sprocket should of revved like a rotary, only time it revved was with NO LOAD on it, put any load on it the amps shoot up and the trike moves forward slooooooowly.

As to the math HAHAHA...considering you MADE UP whoops your word was "assumed" the data you have used in the 'math' NO i wont be taking much faith in it safe...I'm sure the 'math' though is correct, the numbers used in the 'math' are a different story.
Wouldnt be the first time you altered data to support your claims now would it safe...I recall on Endless Sphere you were caught out of this on several occasions when you made up your little simulation spreedsheet so sorry if i have little faith in your graphs and math.

As to using Franks motor and taking his advice i would do that regardless he actually PROVES his results doesn't make up data and then plug them into a graph that makes little to know sense to begin with. I have lost no 'faith' in rewinds as you put it, simply found the double wind i have done performs worse than the stock AWG23 single wind motor.


KiM

p.s you edit too much i checked you photo chop YOUR WRONG the wire goes to the same groove i have the motor sitting RIGHT HERE now looking at it...YOU ARE WRONG!!!

 

[safe]

Differences

...The second "concern" is that I'm not sure if your second wind is aligned correctly with the first wind. It looks almost like you have shifted the second wind over one groove by accident. I tested this as a way to try to change the field (on purpose) and the result was a lot of wasted heat because the magnetic field was rising and falling too much because of the spiral shift in the pattern. This can be an illusion because when you wind the way you lay down the wires can produce some weird visual effects. It's just important that you are certain you go it the right way.

Question:

Did you do the entire wind with a single strand of wire?

...if so then you are fine. Otherwise, did you take care to be sure to get the starting position lined up right? If the starting position is off by one groove that's enough to screw up the results. A commutator pole needs to send it's wire to the same grooves on BOTH winding layers. In effect the two strands of wire are going to combine to behave much like a single wire, so they need to be going to the same places.

It's really hard with the photo to be able to tell.

I know it's a sickening feeling to think you might have made a mistake, but it's better to realize it now and fix it than to continue on with an epoxy layer only to have to take it apart again later.

If you go backwards through my tests you will find that I tried out a "Spiral Wound" pattern and the results were terrible... way too much heat for no reason. In the end I had to remove all the wire and start over.

Proof that I at least did try to warn of the problem...

Apparently AussieJester used just one strand of wire, but got the alignment wrong anyway, so my coaching might have eased his mind by giving an "escape route" thinking that as long as he used a single strand of wire you can't go out of alignment. (which you obviously can)

Argh.....

 

[safe]

This photo clearly shows that it's spiral wound.

Face it... the symptoms match the error exactly.

You just goofed slightly... no big deal... it just means you have to do it over again if you want it to work correctly.

You'll get there...

 

[AussieJester]

For the last time safe... the wire DOESN'T go to the groove you have drawn it too. The FIRST layer was started to THE LEFT of the groove... I can see where the wire goes safe. IT DOESN'T DO WHAT YOU SUGGESTING ...Stop looking for errors and accept that the motor doesn't do what you claim.

Off to workshop have better things to do than argue with an "instant expert' who never listens ...

 

[safe]

Look More Closely...

You forget I've done a lot of these rewinds and can spot problems very well at this point. This enlarged photo absolutely clearly and positively shows that the winding was shifted off by one groove.

The symptoms match the error exactly:

High current usage.

Rapid heating.

Low Power.

How about a new photo?

A closeup. (that way if you are right you can prove it)

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In the photo it's absolutely clear that "1" does not go to "1", "2" to "2", or "3" to "3". There is no way that the lower wires ever GO BACKWARDS when you wind... they always go forwards. (in this case from left to right)

Having done a "spiral wound" motor on purpose just to try it out I have first hand experience with how it behaves. Your symptoms match what I found to be true on my spiral winding adventures.

I've literally "been there" before... so I have first hand real world "been there and done that" knowledge of that error and how it behaves.

 

[duivendyk]

Please elucidate S ,spiral wound ? ,are the windings offset by one commutator segment?,but that would be correctable by shifting the brush position I would imagine.What gives? ,curious.

 

[duivendyk]

I figured it out the two winds are one slot out of phase,produces some sort of partial short during current reversal,bad scene.What a shame,all that work and another strike against multiple winds,the screwup factor .AJ is the complete opposite of cerebral me.He thinks in terms of IC engines,& along frequently false analogies,you are halfway on my side, sort of and I'm in bed with Faraday& Ohm.Quite a trio.

 

[safe]

Your psychological analysis is about right.

In my case I do tend to like to theorize a lot... and I can ramble off into tangents that turn out wrong. However, when I do hear the strength of a good argument I respond to it well and I do admit to my mistakes.

We should remember that I was WRONG when I first started with these rewinds and got the no load speed calculation off. (based on an incorrect theory about magnetic flux)

But I also like the practical... the actual dirt and grim of making theory into reality. If I did nothing but theory the process would not be as satisfying. (riding the bike is great too)

I'm not a perfectionist either, I have no problems going through several failures before I finally get things right.

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I had my concerns about AussieJester when I saw that he was drinking Jack Daniel's Whiskey while doing his rewind. That's not a smart move because rewinding is something that requires careful attention to detail. He might be better of buying motors than building them. We will see.

Hopefully we can get a good closeup photo of the motor to be able to know for sure what happened, but it looks like a spiral wind was the cause of things not performing up to spec.

 

[duivendyk]

Imbibing JD while winding armatures are incompatible activities.A joyous SUBSEQUENT bacchanal is of course perfectly appropriate !.