Electric Bicycle Road Racer (R&D)

[spad4me]

This thread is an UNPAID advertisement for a business that safe hopes will compete With spookytooth's races.



Safe says My hope is to attract the "business demographic" who will be the actual people that determine the course of the sport. The individual riders are sort of a different category of people from the folks that determine what gets built. However, you can't build a product or a sport unless all things come together like rules, laws, riders and business. I'm trying to prepare arguments that might be taken to "corporate headquarters" some day to convince the CEO that an idea is worth pursuing.

So I'm not like most people that post on these types of forums... I have motivations that others don't have. (so I'm probably not a "brother" kind of guy in the sense you suggest) I'd be described as "white collar" and not "blue collar".


I say this, and the your posts will prove me correct.
You have chased the really good electric motorized bicycle builders from this forum by advertising your business concept , the EBRR, in their build threads..

They actually built stuff not just endless re posts of textbooks.

I use the other motorized bicycle forum to stay away from you.

 

[safe]

Cause And Effect

For every action there is a reaction. We now have four different EBRR classifications in this Balkanized racing scene. Each racing type can be analyzed for their tendencies individually.

Battery Capacity Limiting

When the battery capacity is limited the effect on the track is to lesson the importance of speed in the turns. Using things like regen you should be able to coast into a corner while recovering some energy which can be restored into the battery. Top speed would be determined by air resistance and the wattage costs associated with pushing more air. The racing experience is very laid back and seemingly non-competitive, but the true competition is one of efficiency. Pedaling is very helpful to reduce wattage required to stay in motion, so it retains the Cyclists athletic component.

Summary:

This sport is not PINO. This sport is mostly street legal.

Unlimited Power

For Unlimited Power racing there is an unchecked growth of machine weight as people realize that the more motorcycle like the bike gets the better it will perform. Very quickly in the evolution of the machines you lose any need for pedaling as the pedal power represents a small fraction compared to the motor power. This is how the acronym PINO came about because the bike has "Pedals In Name Only".

Summary:

This sport is PINO. This sport is not street legal.

Unlimited Power - Lite

Another class allows for Unlimited Power, but then limits the maximum weight of the machine overall. Let's do the math on this:

20 lbs - Bare minimum for a bike
10 lbs - Extra weight to support stronger components, bigger tires, etc
10 lbs - Motor weight
10 lbs - Battery weight

...at 50 lbs you have a machine that would be limited in power for a 10 mile race so that you could not use more than about 1000 watts for the duration. Triple the battery weight to 30 lbs and you could probably run 3000 watts for the duration with short bursts of 5000 watts. So (in my opinion) this class goes PINO above 50 lbs if you plan to race 10 miles. There are other problems to worry about. First, only Lithium based batteries would be possible because you literally would have a hard time even completing 10 miles using other chemistries. The second problem is that weight is now a fixed quantity and if operating above 50 lbs you are into the PINO region so that rider weight dominates as the primary factor in acceleration. On a regular bicycle weight and human pedal power are naturally in balance as bigger riders can pedal more forcefully than smaller ones. So this rule causes an effect which is to select lighter weight racers.

Summary:

This sport is PINO. This sport is not street legal.

1000 Watt Input Power Limiting

Human pedal power naturally matches the rider weight so that weight differences are minimized. A constant motor power limit that is below the PINO threshold means that acceleration with the added power will be in proportion to the human applied power so pedaling retains it's significance. In other words 1000 Watt Input Power Limiting does not break the Cyclists mindset because all the things that are beneficial in Cycling would operate the same only with some electric assistance. The machines will naturally seek LOWER weight over time and this is something that Cyclists naturally also strive for. This class most closely matches laws about ebikes.

Summary:

This sport is not PINO. This sport is mostly street legal.

 

[safe]

The Cyclists View

ES: Veloman

Ebike racing would be cool, but it won't ever be as big as road cycling racing or motorcycle racing. It's an efficiency sport that includes a motor- hence it is just a fringe activity at best. With road cycling, it's all about athletic performance (and efficiency is demanded). With motorcycle racing, it's all about technique and high power/speed.

The general public has essentially no interest in watching a sport that isn't the pinnacle of either athleticism, power, or skill.

Ebikes are just sooo practical - that they don't hit those psychological highs that other activities can create. Think of the thrill of going 150mph on a streetbike, the thrill of setting an athletic personal best, or outskilling an opponent at a game of baseball, tennis, and so on.

I think a lot of people who drive and love cars - they shun the idea of transporting themselves at a max of 30mph because it's boring or something like that. They love the idea that they can drive 0-60 in 6 seconds in a 'sport' car, thinking it's thrilling. Yet they are really just fooling themselves because in the end, they are still no where near the pinnacle of speed and power that motors can achieve.

I, on the other hand, love the fact that I know I can pedal my road bike faster than 99.99999% of any human. That's a lot more rewarding, even though I may only go 30mph up that hill, while a Mustang driver could do 80 up it.

This is an excellent observation of why EBRR is getting Balkanized. For the other sports (Cycling or Motorcycle Road Racing) they play to the extremes of either athleticism or raw speed and the design goals emerge naturally. The EBRR classes that have developed have a sort of cult like design strategy where people clump together based on their own interests. Recumbents want to race other recumbents, so they make rules to serve that agenda. Outlaw ebikers with PINO bikes want to race other Outlaws so they mold rules for themselves.

1000 Watt Input Limiting EBRR tries to lure the Cyclist back into the sport. The attempt might never work for the very reasons that Veloman has stated, that part of the Cyclist "pride" is that they have in effect done it themselves.

Lance Armstrong even titled his autobiography:

"It's Not About The Bike"

 

[pedalless]

They actually built stuff not just endless re posts of textbooks.

I use the other motorized bicycle forum to stay away from you.

That is about right too spad4me, this thread is just another example of rambling posts one after the other by safe, about the same thing. Safe must think we are slow learners so he continually repeats same information, maybe he believes if he says it enough it becomes the truth haha Just so you do know safe, this is not how it works. They have many interested in the electric bicycle racing on the Endless Sphere forums, from what i see here safe, you don't have one person that is interested in EBRR 1000watt racing You have had a good run now safe, said your piece about EBRR nobody is interested can you please for love of god move on!?

Do you use Endless Sphere electric bicycle forum also spad4me? safe isn't a member there so none of his nonsense there thankfully, people running this site seem alot more forgiving to his carrying ons than at endless sphere..

 

[spad4me]

I am a member of all the motorized bicycle forums I can find .
Including endless sphere.

Safe was banned from endless sphere.
So yes, I am a member there.
Also sites that feature Ron Sumerin, Aussie Jester, Recompense, And others.

That is about right too spad4me, this thread is just another example of rambling posts one after the other by safe, about the same thing. Safe must think we are slow learners so he continually repeats same information, maybe he believes if he says it enough it becomes the truth haha Just so you do know safe, this is not how it works. They have many interested in the electric bicycle racing on the Endless Sphere forums, from what i see here safe, you don't have one person that is interested in EBRR 1000watt racing You have had a good run now safe, said your piece about EBRR nobody is interested can you please for love of god move on!?

Do you use Endless Sphere electric bicycle forum also spad4me? safe isn't a member there so none of his nonsense there thankfully, people running this site seem alot more forgiving to his carrying ons than at endless sphere..

 

[KilroyCD]

...people running this site seem alot more forgiving to his carrying ons than at endless sphere..

I'm not sure if it can be best described as "forgiving", as his posts usually leave me bewildered, and fighting a headache. I usually don't understand what the heck he's talking about, so I have no idea if there is a problem with it (besides repetition).

 

[machiasmort]

For all of those who don't already know, no such bike exists...

Look at the pictures, they are clearly photoshop generated!

 

[safe]

Another Manipulated Thread?

I'm currently posting the same "Theory" thread on five forums. Very often I simply copy / paste things from one to the next.

This is the second thread that has been moved / manipulated. They were:

Electric Bicycle Road Racing Theory

1000 Watt Power Limiting Circuit Design

...on top of that I just received another infraction for starting a thread than had a link to a patent:

Millennial Research Motor Patent

...so given the fact that I'm getting a stream of trumped up charges against me this will likely be my last posting. (at this rate)

--------------------------------

No one can possibly say that the idea of 1000 Watt Input Limiting EBRR is invalid, so based on pure truth there is no justification for this heavy handedness.

There are now four concepts:

Battery Capacity Limiting
Unlimited Power
Unlimited Power - Lite (weight restricted)
1000 Watt Power Limiting

...this is just the truth.

Every bike sold legally in the US is automatically eligible for 1000 Watt Power Limited racing, however, they are not optimal racebikes. Battery Capacity Limiting like they do at Portland International Raceway is now limited to 1000 watt motors in order to make them compliant with the law. This means the established base of ebikes in the US eligible for racing is now very large.

My goal (since 2007) has been to encourage the use of ebikes on Go Kart tracks and the very fact that so many racing classifications are popping up here and there says to me that it's an area that will continue to grow.

It's a Balkanized scene in EBRR... there is no doubt about it... but that shouldn't mean that any one classification should be discriminated against. Let's let the products come forth and mass production will find the way to the truth. We will know which classification ultimately "wins" by the free market.

The free market is still cool here right?

---------------------------------------

The "bottom line" is that nothing I've been posting about has been incorrect.

 

[safe]

Some BMX History...

Check out wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMX_racing

Other notable American sanctioning bodies

Along with the majors and pioneers, there were other BMX governing bodies, both national and regional and past and present. Among them were the Bicycle Motocross League (BMXL); the United Bicycle Racers Association (UBR) (1977-1983); the United States Bicycle Motocross Association (USBA) (1984-1986), which merged with the ABA at the end of the 1986 racing season after financial trouble made it unsustainable; the International Cycling Association (ICA), which was started in part by professional racer Greg Hill in 1990; and the Southeast Region-based National Pedal Sport Association (NPSA) (1975-1985). They are all gone now, but they did make, for good or ill, an impact on the American BMX scene.

-----------------------------

My comments:

Apparently the beginning of BMX was at least as fragmented as the beginning of EBRR. While BMX seemed to have a single definition of what the bike would look like they still managed to create multiple racing organizations where many did not survive.

As I've pointed out in previous postings EBRR is already divided into at least four classifications now:

Battery Capacity Limiting
Unlimited Power
Unlimited Power - Lite (weight limited)
1000 Watt Input Limited (Federal Ebike Law - "What you buy at the store")

...so if history is our guide chaos at this stage of the process is normal. The very fact that so much chaos exists means that there is interest so we should see it as a positive sign.

 

[pedalless]

For all of those who don't already know, no such bike exists...

Look at the pictures, they are clearly photoshop generated!

what!? troll or serious? safe has two of these bikes, there are many
pictures of them he has been at this for a long time i been told. A search
on Endless Sphere bought up the worklog of the second bike, its actually nice
work Safe you have some very nice skills pitty you like to ramble on all the time haha

As said before in other 1000watt EBRR thread, i can't see anyone
taking to this and have been prooved correct, there isn't
anyone but safe interested in 1000watt e-bicycle racing. On
Endless Sphere they are also making discussion about rules
for racing, 1000watt was laughed at and quickly dismissed,
and no safe, not everyone there is into big outlaw power as you say
don't start up on that like you did in other thread
If you can't get a dedicated electric bicycle forum to take
to the idea, your wasting your time here safe i believe.
I know this won't stop you, we will see many more pages of the same
information but simply repeating that you want this 1000watt EBRR
isn't going to miraculously make people buy into it either safe
you are persistent i give you that man.