Do "Outlaw Bikers" Help The Ebike Cause?

[mean lean]

Lance Armstrong has been heavily drug tested and never failed one.

The medical community seems to think that it was his cancer that somehow modified an already competitive cyclist to the level he attained. When he got cancer he lost a lot of weight and managed to never put it back on... so he had a cancer induced advantage one might say. However, he was winning races even before his cancer, so there was an underlying body design that was positive too.

Lance Armstrong is the greatest cyclist in Tour De France history and no one can say he isn't a graceful champion.

He's the role model to follow...

kind of off topic, but kind of right on topic, "OUTLAWS" and all that.

http://books.google.com/books?id=M8...nce armstrong drug scandal dr ferrari&f=false

part way down, Dr Ferrari, take the blinkers off, forget about your patriotism and mass media hype, read it with an open mind.
The world is controlled by money hungry hypocrites, "outlaws" ...

 

[safe]

Trust me, Government involvment is not the answer here. Aruging amoung ourselves is not the answer.

I think you have it backwards don't you?

My argument is that by staying within the laws we do not gather the wrath of law enforcement and that frees us from worrying about the sport getting banned.

It's the notion that there are no rules (the "Outlaw" concept) that actually attracts the government (law enforcement) as a reaction.

In a sense I'm being "pre-emptive" in anticipating the eventual showdown and advising a wiser course is to stay legal from the start.

----------------------------------

We are at this moment the "most free" that is reasonably possible in the real world... however it's possible that a small group of "Outlaws" could spoil it for us.

In a sense we are NOW living in the "good old days" of ebikes.

(right now the law is pretty laid back about it)

 

[safe]

A True Story...

When I was young I was into fast motorcycles. I had an RD400 that was tricked out with full fairings and other modifications. My friend also had a fast bike and we would go racing in the hills of California.

Now I was then and am now not the type that likes to attract unneeded attention to myself. Even though my bike looked like a racebike the important thing I realized is the when in town you ride it so that you appear to be RESPECTFUL of the laws. Once out of sight you are in effect "out of mind" so when I would get out to the lonely backroads that would be when I would open up on the power and indulge my addiction.

My friend was of a different mindset...

My friend used to like to go down into town and pull wheelies in front of people so that he felt like he was being an "Outlaw" and was unafraid of anything... it was your basic rebellion for the sake of rebellion.

Now I used to tell my friend again and again that if he keeps flaunting himself in public like that he would eventually get into trouble.

Finally... after something like ten or more actual police incidents where my friend got away the police showed up at his door (everyone knew who we were) and arrested him. He served about six months.

The moral:

The moral of this (true) story is that law enforcement does not automatically react to anything. There is a slow buildup that preceeds the eventual decision to crack down. As long as you stay below the radar the law tends to not bother wth you, but if you threaten the "sheep" in any way they are obligated to defend the peace.

The "Outlaw" ebiker tends to be a combination of both the illegal machine and the personality type that likes to confront authority. (adolescent personality type) It's the combination that is going to bring the laws down onto ebikes.

Many of these ebikers with illegal machines talk about their efforts to conceal the fact that they have the extra power... and that shows maturity and awareness of the situation. So it's possible to be illegal and not get attention, but the ideal would be to be both legal and not disrespectful around the law.

 

[AussieJester]

Still rabbiting on i see Safe...

Can you please explain to me ONE small detail...

How can you NOT be an "outlaw" (as you put it) riding a bike at 60mph in full race leathers around the streets? Your also WAAAY over the 750Watt limit you preech in every second thread. You know full well you using more than 1300watts to achieve the speeds you do as well yet continue to blame others for doing EXACTLY what your doing.

Please explain this to me Safe i can't follow your logic here at all and im surprised if anyone else can, maybe augidog he seems as eccentric as yourself, but i can't see anyone else buying what your "selling" at the very least augidog initially sided with you with a good idea but again you ****ed that away like you do everyone else that tries to support you. You have made zero progress in 3 years on your own trying to get the EBRR idea happening, you were offered the chance to contribute to an established forum setup for bicycle racing, there's your platform right there to get your EBRR to people that have similar ideas but nooooo you continue to dribble on to people that have little to know interest in what your offering...Please Safe take augidog up on his offer to contribute on his forum its better than making a pest of yourself choking peoples threads time and time again with the same ol EBRR spiel...

KiM

p.s and your Lance Armstrong NO DOUBT hes on the go go juice all his fellow team members from 1999 Tour Win were caught doping you think ol Lance didn't have a sniff your kidding yourself Safe. You dont get to that level and stay competitive against other pro-cyclist on the juice without being on it yourself. Have a GooGle and read up on
it Safe you will soon see the trend amongst the elite cyclists...they use performance enhancing drugs buddy. Just because he hasnt been caught means absolutely nothing Safe, there are masking drugs that cover the the presence of the ilegal drugs there are also corrupt officials ..few years ago here in OZ a pro footballyer by the name of Ben Cousins was outed as a drug addicted, he was continually tested for illicit drugs NEVER NOT ONCE in 2 years was he caught.

 

[safe]

History Repeats?

Back in the 1960's and into the 1970's the trend was to be "free from rules" and while it started off as people trying to be hippies and the "Summer of Love" it eventually deteriorated into a bunch of people getting stoned and doing nothing.

It was time for a change in values...

Beginning in the 1980's America took a sharp turn away from the rule breaking theme from the previous decades and the new concept was to conform and compete. The "Yuppie" was born and all of a sudden the economy took off and people started wanting to be rich rather than stoned.

Late into the 1990's and through this last decade the culture returned to break rules only this time it wasn't about getting stoned, but instead it was about "acting out" on negative emotions. The "Bad Boy" concept was born and we've been stuck with it for a couple decades now.

The poster boy for "Bad Boy Outlaw" is someone like Kanye West who at a recent awards show decided that he did not like the fact that a 19 year old goddess was deserving of an award more than someone to his liking. Kanye West jumps to the platform and grabs the mike from the beautiful girl and steals the show.

Now what was SURPRISING is up until now everyone used to think that was cool... but from what I've seen the public opinion is starting to favor the "good girl" over the "bad boy".

The times might again be changing. (history repeats itself)

 

[safe]

...You have made zero progress in 3 years on your own trying to get the EBRR idea happening, you were offered the chance to contribute to an established forum setup for bicycle racing.

What makes you think I'm not going to contribute to the other forum?

My time horizon is in years, not hours or minutes. I've been fiddling around with small road racers since 1980 so it's not a matter of being impatient and wanting quick results. I'm not expecting to make a quick buck on this... I'm doing the hobby because I like it.

The main thing is to (for myself) arrive at a clear vision of where things need to go and then work towards that end. Racing is a premature idea to even consider when there are no bikes yet.

While there is an absence of ebikes, racing is impossible. The mass production of a product easily adaptable to racing must preceed the organization of racing... home built ebikes means it's just too early.

I'd say that racing is at least 5 - 10 years away... (at best)

Given my opinion of the chances of racing to develop at the moment I'm not going to be very well received with a group of people who want racing now.

In total I've been in the "hobby" (loosely defined) for 30 years. :innocent:

This also means that I might be watching actual "Electric Bicycle Road Racing" while I lie on my deathbed from old age... (just being realistic) I'm never going to be any kind of EBRR champion... that's going to be for the young.

 

[AussieJester]

And yet again you failed to answer my question... its pointless even attempting having a conversion with you Safe you simply ignore what is asked if you dont like the question and dribble on with irrelevant **** that has absolutely no relevance to anything being discussed, you even try to make it sound like its FACT when its simply your warped opinion...

KiM

 

[safe]

The issue of compliance is one of "gradual migration" towards compliance.

My past bike is a fluke and it's headed for the "museum" so to speak. (the local police don't care because they classifiy it as a moped and by those standards it's not that fast)

What matters is the future and I'm clearly building around all the laws... my intention is as stated to seek full compliance to qualify as legal in the three markets that will exist:

All Markets: 750 Watt Output Limit using 1000 Watt Input Limit

Market One: Federal Law Legal - Top Speed 20 mph

Market Two: Most State Legal - Top Speed 30 mph (~90% allow 30 mph)

Market Three: Racetrack - No Speed limits

-------------------------------

The idea is to create an ebike "for the future" to fit all three markets without significant modification of hardware. My present development is with the idea of the AC Induction motor because you can speed restrict them easily by just limiting the frequency. But that's all technical stuff... the main thing is to try to build one bike that can be adapted to different markets.

It's like with motorcycle road racing... it wasn't until the Japanese started building the bikes that racing became a real sport, so being too preoccupied with racing is a futile adventure when there are no machines to race on.

 

[safe]

As said above...

Our goal is to "gradually" migrate towards universal compliance.

Just because Missouri allows 3 hp motors and the local police seem not to care what you do doesn't mean that it's something to build for in the future.

Would you be happier if I just cut up the old bike?

As far as I'm concerned the old bike and it's "naive" position in the scheme of things is just a museum piece. It's a novelty... "Yep, you can build an illegal ebike that goes 45 mph on the flat and 55 mph downhill" but it's not something for the future.

----------------------------------

Given the Missouri specific nature of the old bike I've even wondered if it would be worth the bother keeping it for when I eventually move away from Missouri. The old bike is basically only usable here.

Missouri allows 3 hp which is 2250 watts and I'm only using 1300 watts, so I'm only using 57% of what is allowed !!!!

Which is kind of shocking isn't it?

(for people living in highly restricted areas they must be dying of envy )

Missouri allows 10 times the power limit of Australia.

-----------------------------------

This is what is known as "Irony". I live in the one place in the world where the laws are so lax that you can pretty much do whatever you want and yet I'm the guy that is the strongest supporter of strict compliance to a single standard.

Maybe a lot of people that are complaining about not having enough power ought to just move to Missouri?

You can "let er rip" here and no one cares...

I can see the headline now:

"Move to Missouri... the 'Ebike State'".

(or another headline might read: "Move to Missouri because you can run at three times the Federal Law Limit for Ebikes.")

 

[safe]

Missouri Moped Law

Without getting into the law itself (which is a bore) what I want to comment on is the real reason for having a 3 hp limit for mopeds here.

Basically it's the climate and the soil.

Most of the area is soft clay soil and while that makes for some of the most fertile land for farming in the world it's very hard to build on it. The soft clay tends to expand and contract when it gets wet and dry and also in winter things expand and contract due to freezing and thawing. The result is that maintaining the roads here is VERY expensive. Pot holes develop almost immediately because of the conditions.

As a practical result of this most of the roads are made very narrow so as to reduce the costs associated with repaving them. This means that there are no bike path shoulders to ride on so when a car comes upon a bike on a road there is no room to pass. This creates a situation where the drivers would rather that the bikes were faster so that things move along better.

Because of all this it makes perfect sense for Missouri to allow slightly higher speeds on the roads for mopeds because they want to keep traffic from clogging up.

So it's somewhat of a random coincidence that the climate forces a decision that actualy benefits ebikes.

If the situation here were different (like a dry desert stable environment) then they could build roads that allowed cars to pass bikes and then it would be more likely that the ebikes and mopeds would have more restrictions on them.