Quit hiding "illegality" behind fanboyism

Discussion in 'General Questions' started by SchwinnAlloySeven_GT5, Jul 22, 2008.

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  1. Nay, the debate continues. I work nightshift, and saw many things on this forum in the early AM hours that alarmed me today. This is why I've quit being a silent member today and opened up the floodgates of tenacious debate. IMHO, things neeed to be said, and I mean no disrespect to anyone in this forum. I love this community, and this is why I am vocal now.

    I was in that "illegality" thread when it got moved early this morning, and IMHO, it was far from getting out of hand. What it was, was some people disagreeing with the state of this forum as it was at that point in time, and without any disrespect, stating their opinion as such. This post too, was in the process of being posted, and the thread it was in locked.

    A little background: Around the time I became a member of this forum, this community was much smaller, and we only had a couple admins. There was no elitism back then, there was only a bunch of guys modifying their bicycles because it was fun and much cheaper/less trouble than the ramifications of owning an automobile and playing non-contact bumper cars with everyone else. There was lots of respect between members, and the only problems that arose came from one guy, who'll I'll call BJ.

    Since then, it has progressed into 4-stroke fanboy elitism, over-moderation bordering on suppression of intelligent debate/expression, and overpopulation of this forum with no respect whatsoever for the scene. Revolution? Yes, there should be one, but not in the context which those who proclaim so state. There are too many admins here, and a few are more than trigger-happy enough for the rest.

    I love all MABs. But I do not believe that we should focus our attentions on the "legality" or "emissions" of them. Instead, we should focus on teaching MABists the importance of riding respectfully among the people who lack our...quirks. Because MABists who ride like people who yak on phones while driving 3 ton trucks are going to do far more damage to the scene than any "non-compliance" MABist.

    Please discuss.

  2. Let me clarify, as several points I made are in a now-locked thread:

    "HT 2-strokes are illegal" They are illegal to import complete. Being that this country is run on loopholes, this can be bypassed on a technicality. There are much worse things being done here than importing a cheap engine for a financially-challenged individual to use as transportation.

    "HT 2-strokes are non-EPA compliant" In 2 states they are. SpookyTooth has shown that they can pass Federal regulations - that means all states but California and New York. Many states don't even perform emissions testing, and we MABists know that state law can supercede federal law.

    These 2 points are being attempted to be drummed into everyone's heads by a few members here, most notably those of 4-stroke GEBE persuasion. I have nothing against any 4-strokes, and I admire GEBE, but hiding fanboyism behind claims that "HTs are illegal and should be banned and we are going to tell on you" is something that I find sickening.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2008
  3. HoughMade

    HoughMade Guest

    What troubles me about this whole situation is a few things:

    1. Federal environmental regulations are extremely complex. Professionals who must know the regulations spend years learning how to read and interpret regulations, then spend hours every week studying them and determining how they apply. For people who do not have the background to assume they can, with the aid of google, become experts on what is legal and illegal is laughable. I am sorry if this offends anyone, but I know enough to know that that cannot possibly provide the information needed to gain any level of mastery on the subject. I am a lawyer, have practice law for almost 10 years and even teach it at an ABA accredited law school, but I do not do environmental, so I know I can only comment generally and cannot know it all. No matter what side someone is on in this this- let me say that again- NO MATTER WHAT SIDE SOMEONE IS ON IN THIS, I am confident that I have not seen anyone here with the credentials to state with accuracy who is and is not acting legally or illegally. I find law compliance to be a virtue, but this is a complex matter.

    2. Why can't people disagree, debate spiritedly, even downright argue and still get along outside the contentious thread? I fail to understand this.

    3. Why do some people have to bring the legal-illegal issue into every thread no matter whether it has anything to do with it or not? Want to debate it? Fine- but if someone wants help on their frame mount 2 stroke- leave it outside or in a thread where legaility is the issue.

    4. Why do people want to leave just because there is an argument going on? Maybe its because I am a lawyer and argument has been my life, but geez, turn it off sometimes and enjoy the parts of the forum you enjoy. Stay out of the argument threads...of course, that is an issue if people won't keep the arguments where they belong.

    ....I'm not going anywhere.
  4. datz510

    datz510 Member

    I like how any critical posts are being removed from the "Farewell" thread.... mine for instance. There were some VERY well put posts in that topic that were deleted... A 5 page thread, locked, and then trimmed down to 2 pages removing all the reasons WHY people are leaving...

    You guys need to get your act together.. thats all I can say.

    I'm out of here... off to better places.

  5. As a lawyer, you should know that the level of complexity built into any law is a blessing in disguise. Complexity almost always means more gray area. Gray area means loopholes. Those loopholes are available to anyone who can research the extent of said laws and intepret them in such a manner that results in exploitation given the right angles and rhetoric/argument. We won't even mention the fact that city can supercede state, which can supercede federal. EPA need not be significant, except for import. If Federal was end-all, Arizona MABist would have much more freedom in operations of their bikes. In fact, none of us would have problems unless we were caught with a >49cc or going over 30MPH.

    Without considering any possible jab at my methods (yes, I am very self-critical and therefore defensive due to overanalyzation - also see below *), this is a rhetorical question, for the most part. From my gatherings in the great charlie foxtrot that is life, I have gathered that this is because people have become too self-important. The evidence is everywhere. You as a lawyer have doubtlessly seen the effects. *People are more easily offended these days, and many are simply incapable of arguing or debating in such a manner that is conducive to getting a genuine point across. People have become too aware, and in that process, with the nature of of laws pertaining to individuals, have become too self-important. I know you've seen a frivolous lawsuit. They are related to greed and inability to swallow pride.

    This has popped up a lot in the last month. The way I see it, it is a weak excuse tacked onto scorned fanboyism. Many people on MBc have had bad experiences with HTs, for a myriad of reasons. One finally says "nuff with the HT", gets a 4-stroke, it runs like a small-block Chev (don't need to do squat to it for the most part), and one's nose gets turned up higher and higher towards those who still run what one left behind. Variables are not considered. Example: I saw Augidog claim that HTs are not fit for everyday transportation. Well, I scoffed when I read that - totally disagree, I keep up with maint on my Dax HT and it's been nearly bulletproof for 1600 miles.

    I've been debating online since 1997, and this is what I've always seen: Guy makes controversial comment, Dude disagrees. Guy makes more controversial comment, Dude expands on argument. Guy tries another argument, but it is weak. Dude expands and debunks it. Guy says 'I'm sick of arguing" or says nothing at all, just leaves. People want to argue, but they often don't want to accept the ramifications of an extended argument. They often just lack the ability to carry on an argument they started. Maybe they're just sick of arguing :grin:

    Sadly, they often just hold onto a short proclamation, which they are unable to expand upon when their bluff is called. That makes the person an ultracrepidarian. That's BSer in layman's terms. :lol:

    Great post HoughMade, thanks for your thoughts.
  6. I thought exactly the same thing. Admins here have been very...militant lately, and there are just too many of them. I took a break for awhile from this forum...when I left, there were 3 moderators. I came back and there were 3 or more for each section. And they have edited my posts for trivial things, which I don't appreciate. I'm an Admin in another forum (1 of 6) and none of us do that.

    No disrespect to the admins, but you guys are definitely getting to be borderline fascist with that stuff. I understand to a point, considering some of the posting trash that has blown through here ("BJ"), but you guys are a bit out of hand. Too many, too trigger-happy, out of line with some edits IMHO.

    RATRODER Guest

    No disrespect to the admins, but you guys are definitely getting to be borderline fascist with that stuff. I understand to a point, considering some of the posting trash that has blown through here ("BJ"), but you guys are a bit out of hand. Too many, too trigger-happy, out of line with some edits IMHO.
    SchwinnAlloySeven GT5 I only trim the hate and bashing,thank you. louis
  8. motoschwinn

    motoschwinn Guest

    Probably why everyone is running to the other site.... Wonder how long this post will last?
  9. Maintenancemanmatt

    Maintenancemanmatt New Member

    A diffrent take

    I checked in today to see where that thread on 2 stroke EPA was going to find it locked and this one started. What was so bad? It seemed to me that there was an agenda of a political type being pushed and members were responding to it. Isn't that what forums are for? I thought it was a lively discussion and just starting to get interesting. Oh well back to building my 2 stroke bike. In California no less. HEH HEH HEH

  10. I appreciate the response, but that is open to interpretation as well. Where does one draw the line between opinion and hate/bashing? An insult is relative - what could be an insult to one guy could be just a critque to another. It could just be an inane comment not necessarily directed at any one person. A critique could be construed as an insult in situations, too. It all becomes one giant charlie foxtrot when you admins "trim" something.

    I see a lot of posts I would consider borderline hate/bashing and they don't get edited. I've seen more posts that are legitimate opinion get edited than insult-leaning posts. Is it coincidence many of these posts are made by friends of admins? Neutrality here is dead for the most part, and it's contributing to the downfall of this community and the defection of some of it's members.

    I can understand an edit of a post with an outright insult like calling someone a name, or cussing. But when admins aren't slacking, they are being overzealous. Just my opinion. I wouldn't want the job, but you guys need to look at things more objectively. The lack of a checks and balance system doesn't help, either.
  11. Mountainman

    Mountainman Active Member

    When I bought my engine -- I didn't know much in regards to these modern MBS -- so being in Calif (known to be strick) I asked of the dealer a few questions -- I was good to go -- most of us know what's going on in our state and country.. Seen these things happening on other sites -- many leaving -- some just getting thrown off -- possible trouble makes - woooo --- then later most wished they had never left !! That old site was never the same.. Maybe -- take what we like here -- threads -- and let the rest go --- leaves more time for riding !! Happy Riding from - Mountainman
  12. Karamil

    Karamil Guest

    I agree with ratroder here. This is why I have not posted much since my first MB.
  13. motoschwinn

    motoschwinn Guest

    Somebody want to play 'TAPS'
  14. Accender

    Accender Member

    I own a EPA legal four stroke. I plan on buying a happy time very soon! They run like
    a stepped on cat and need maintence like a woman. Who could complain about that!
    The carbon footprint of a happy time (over a year) is one tenth of what Al Gores bathroom produces in one minute. Plus the peformance of a 2stroke is awsome!!
    I think the whole EPA thing is out of place for MBrs. Whatever you ride you are
    doing less damage then 99.99% of the general population with their mode of transportation. MBs rule, Cars suck.

    The EPA says the Escalade is OK but the Happytime is bad. \

    I just can't buy that. If you do, I have a bridge for sale. pm me.

    I love all you guys so take this with a large grain of salt.


    GO Happy Time :)
  15. wavygravy

    wavygravy Guest

    im so sorry i ever brought up the topic of compliance! i was just trying to look to the future of motoredbikes & what may happen in the future. i know our happytimes leave a small footprint compared to an escalade, yes i own one on my 1952 jc higgins, it fits the bike so well & ive thought of purchaseing another as back up. but al gore & the ecoligists arent gonna let that fly for to much longer, i could be wrong! i so wish china whould listen to the rest of the world & look in the right direction also. or an american company whould build a far superior happy time. but then it whouldnt be cheap anymore as entry level to motoredbikes, whats a guy to do? save your pennys & spend wisely motored bikers!! the things we do here can truly make a difference! i will no longer state my preferences based on miles on engines as not to offend anybody tom!! god bless america!!!
  16. Warner

    Warner Member

    I was disappointed to see several of my posts deleted. My posts were neither off-topic, OR hostile. I questioned some of the motives of certain actions. Based on my deleted posts, I'm questioning them even more. It's sad - the censorship is really overboard here and if it continues it WILL drive a large portion of the community away. Just like when this happens at a company - the good and valuable people will leave first.


    PS - For the record, I'm probably one the people who was thought of as an "elitist" because I have a Staton kit and don't care for the Chinese products. I have been rather vocal in my opinions at times. But I don't believe that my opinion on this should mean that nobody else's is less important, relevant, or valuable though.
  17. Accender

    Accender Member

    "elitist" and motored-bikes is an oxymoron.
    we are the few, on the real side. 2008, All of us.

    Last edited: Jul 22, 2008
  18. Warner

    Warner Member

    *I* totally agree with you......I'm not sure everyone would. Hehe...

  19. Zev0

    Zev0 Member

    I know Warner. Everyone thinks I'm against 2 strokes. heck, I ride one everyday. Love it. Plus I do have the Robin but would rather ride the 2 stroke. And they're calling me one of the elitists too.
  20. Warner

    Warner Member

    My Staton kit uses a 2 stroke as well. It happens to be EPA approved....even in California. I didn't buy it because of that, though. It just seemed like the best option for my application. Or my PLANNED application anyway...haven't used it for my 20 mile (each way) commute yet....still ironing out issues (that are associated more with my cammo job than anything else!)

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