HYDROGEN MOTORBIKE (Next level?)

[BSA]

You could perhaps slightly extend the range by introducing some positive feedback, I.E put a generator on the engine and send say 25% of the energy back into the Electrolysis process. Assuming an optimum 95% efficiency with the electrolysis and 50% efficiency (as suggested by Loquin) on the engine (Disregarding the certain fact that the generator would be quite inefficient.) the amount of energy place back into electrolysis would be 11.856%

Therefore one would reason (don't forget this is assuming that the generator is 100% efficient.) that per gallon of hydrogen, one could gain an extra 11% worth of extra fuel. A wiser alternative would be to increase the throttle thus allowing for even ore hydrogen to be released.

Sorry to bore everyone with this super long post and my calculations are probably all wrong anyway.

BSA

 

[loquin]

NO - the generator would take more power to spin it than it could provide for by electrolysis. If it could work that way, it would be a form of perpetual motion, which is strictly forbidden by the laws of thermodynamics.

The exact same amount of energy needed to break the oxygen/hydrogen bonds is all that is released when the oxygen and hydrogen re-combine.

Let's suppose that the generator is a very good one, and is operating at 90% efficiency. If you put 50 watts of work into it, it generates 45 watts. Then, at electrolysis, at 60% efficiency (also, very good), you get hydrogen with 27 watts of potential. You burn that in the engine, and you get (at 50% efficiency,) 13.5 watts of work. This is a losing proposition... Take away 50 watts of output from the engine, but get only 13.5 watts back. That is a net loss of 36.5 watts. Even if you assume a maximum electrolysis efficiency of 95%, the net power loss is 28.6 watts.

The fact remains that unless you can raise electrolysis efficiency until it is greater than a decent electric motor (about 75% or so) you are best off just using an electric motor driven from the battery. If you throw in the fact that an internal combustion motor is, at best, about 50% efficient at converting chemical energy into mechanical energy (with the excess released as waste heat,) the system, as a whole, can never be as efficient as a good electric motor.

Now, there may be other reasons to use hydrogen. If we set up large-scale electrolysis plants, with power piped in from solar, wind, geothermal, or hydroelectric plants, we could set up a hydrogen fuel infrastructure. I'm afraid that it will probably never be possible to design, build, and operate a portable hydrogen generator that is more efficient than generating hydrogen in a large fixed facility, even if transportation/pumping losses associated with a large centralized facility are included in the calculations.

 

[Large Filipino]

Okay this whole microwave thing sounds ridiculous and all but check this out.
A microwave with straight electricity is able to heat something from the inside out. Even on defrost cycle it can still keep meat on the surface cold.
So imagine this electrode water thing getting a microwave energy boost. Okay. Maybe we can't use metal cause everyone here has probably seen what a microwave does to metal but it's the metal that makes the bubbles so it's back to the drawing board.
But here's the thing. Whatever is in everyone's microwave is supposedly dangerous to all and yet every American household has one.
And it takes one energy,electricity,and converts it to seemingly more energy if I'm not mistaken.
I'll say this again. It takes an energy and converts it to more energy.
Isn't this what we ultimately want?

 

[kerf]

Keep work'n guys, I just told my broker to buy more Exxon Mobil, looks like dino power's gonna be here awhile. If you keep adding more gizmo's and lose power with every one, pretty soon you may create a power void. Could turn into a hole in space time and suck the left coast into oblivion.

 

[graucho]

Thanks everyone for your input. Its getting me mentally motivated to move ahead. It was nice taking a break from it. My vision is fresh, and clear.

Large you brainiack. Your metal in the microwave principle solved a problem for one of my son in laws experiments! He says thanks.

 

[Large Filipino]

What did he blow up LOL!!!

 

[KiDD]

I think if you just built a fueling station at home and bottled the hydrogen you would be better off then making a perpetual motion machine.

 

[loquin]

Large - the microwave doesn't make more energy - it just heats more efficiently than a standard oven - it heats "from the inside out."

Well, not really, but it seems that way.

A microwave is just a very high frequency radio transmitter. The frequencies are just the right frequency to make water molecules vibrate. Now, if you remember your science classes, heat is just molecules vibrating, Right?

So, if you can make the water molecules in the food vibrate very fast, the molecules bounce off other molecules and make them vibrate too. Pretty soon, the energy that came from the radio waves has heated up the food. Since it penetrates deeper into the food than a regular oven heat does, and the outer surface of the food tends to act like an insulator and hold the heat in, it causes the food to cook faster.

 

[Large Filipino]

Okay. Now lets take that over to the Hydrogen maker.
If you can make the water molecules in the electrolysis glass thing vibrate very fast, the molecules bounce off other molecules and make them vibrate too. Pretty soon, the energy that came from the radio waves has bubbled up the water to make the hydrogen. Since it penetrates deeper into the water than straight electricity, and the outer surface of the glass tends to act like an insulator and hold the heat in, it causes the hydrogen to produce faster!

...so what's in a microwave that's so dangerous anyway?

I know I'm probably (definitely) way out in left field but I feel that this is the kind of out of there thinking that's gonna make this move forward.

So radio waves makes things vibrate and causes heat.
We need the electrical current to do that electrolysis thing to make that Hydrogen.
Electrical current by itself causes heat from it moving across the metal but not enough with it encased in water and the low voltage to feel anything.
So can we get microwave energy....radio waves...to vibrate the metal like the way current does this?
I still think that the energy to produce the radio waves though the actual radio wave is physically weaker than the current used to produce it actually makes energy from vibrating whatever it hits.
So there you go. electricity by itself cannot heat your steak by electrifying your steak near as efficiently as bombarding it with radio waves...actually radiation.

This is key here. There's something about all this.

I got one of them old coffee cup warmers. You plug it in then there's this thick wire coil that you submerge in your coffee and it heats it up.
So electrical current does cause heat like a microwave. But a microwave does a better job.

You take a baseball. You throw it at a window. It shatters. The glass falls on the ground and hits the cat. The cat runs in fright and knocks over a glade candle. The glade candle causes a fire and the whole house burns down.

Your energy throwing the baseball caused a chain reaction that caused the house to burn down.
Your small energy produced a large energy.

You put battery current to a device that makes the radio waves. The waves by itself is a small current but it hits the metal causing a chain reaction and now the metal is vibrating at a rate more powerful than your original current.

...I better go to bed.

 

[RedGreen]

A number of things are bad about microwaves Large. It's got a very high wavelength, perhaps it could be termed frequency. This vibratory motion that microwaves incuce actually tears the molecules apart by trying to rotate them in the opposite direction. This is basically what causes the heat. (products of my misspent youth in college.) Now if you want to talk about harm to people, in can and will, just as power lines and cellphones cause brain damage so does microwaves. Ham radios transceivers don't cause too much problem because most antennas are based away and shielded from humans. When you talk about food, microwaves can take a perfectly healthy allbeit fatty snack and by heating it turn it into a largely useless high fat wad of goo. (stop me if I'm getting to technical). You see by heating the food up in this way it breaks the food molecules apart and renders them unusable to the human body.
Other than that I don't have any problems with microwaves at all.