Long time E-Biker tries ICE !

Discussion in 'General Questions' started by Ypedal, Sep 19, 2010.

  1. Ypedal

    Ypedal Member

    Over the last 6 years i can honestly say i have tried just about every Electric kit and battery tech available on the market, brushed and brushless, Direct Drive and Geared hub motors, Chain driven electrics ( Cyclone and RC ), from 36v to 100v 20 to 100 amps, SLA, nicad, nimh, LiMn, LiFepo4, LiPo(cobalt).

    Since day 1 i have been itching to try the Gas powered kits, have sent many emails to inquire, bid on ebay auctions a few times( sniped and lost.. ), asked opinions on what i should get etc etc etc.... most people told me the same applies to electric, you can go small or you can go big, you pretty much get what you pay for.

    Well, a few weeks ago i finally did it... won an auction on ebay and for 115$ + shipping what you guys call a " Happy Time " kit was on it's way. Ironically that same week i made a trade for a lithium pack and also now have a Mitsubishi with Stanton Gearbox i have to install.. but that comes later this week.

    I " borrowed " my neighbor's mountain bike, ( he knows me well enough now to be aware it won't come back the way he lent it lol.. :grin5: ) a chromo frame Leader mtb, nothing fancy but strong and suitable for a test machine.

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  2. Ypedal

    Ypedal Member

    Took me the better part of a day to install, the rear wheel rubber ring thing came together fairly easy, the motor mounts were too small for the downtube but the kit came with a bit U bolt and flat plate so it was not too bad, i drilled a hole in the flat place and secured it to the frame using one of the water bottle bolts then mounted the motor, back tube was the right diameter.

    Looping the chain thru the motor sproket was impossible, spark plug was out already so i poured some 2 stroke oil in the plug hole, pushed the piston down, but it was not enough to get the chain all the way around, removed the motor cover and spun the crank with a wrench, way easier..

    Tensioner went in easy, nice and beefy unit, no worries..

    Gas tank.. oh boy.. now that sucker looked good on the outside but luckily i looked inside beforehand and found ALOT of rust in there, threw in some dry rice and shook it up to loosen the big stuff, air compressor came after and i got a huge orange cloud of rust billowing out the thing.. poured some gas in and shook it up and it came out clean.. called it good enough for now. Will replace this with plastic tank regardless..

    throttle and cables went on easily, talk about a simple wire job compared to some of my electric projects !! ..wow...

    The Pipe was a problem however, hitting the left pedal, i tried to bend it on a bench vice but no joy.. had to cut a pie shape slice, bend, and re-weld it to make things right..

    Mixed my 8oz to 1 Gal of fuel as recommended, poured in the tank.. re-checked all my nuts and bolts... and put on my helmet. :eek:

    My street is a slight hill so i headed down, choke on, got going and dropped the clutch, put put put put put..

    Crappy picture, late afternoon and dark.. will post better one's later.

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  3. Ypedal

    Ypedal Member

    ( sorry for the multiple posts, i hate it when i write a fairly long post and my PC zoinks out, re-writing stuff is no fun )

    Ok.. so .. the maiden voyage. . put put put .. brrrrrrrrr she came to life easily !!! then stalled.. then fired again.. took me a moment but i figured it out. :cool:

    I have not yet burned thru my 1st Gallon, about 1/4 of it so far.. first impressions..

    - This thing is LOUD.
    - This thing vibrates !!!
    - It leaves you smelling of fuel after even a short ride

    I am very much used to my electric rides, no matter how fast you go on an ebike the motor sounds the same, the smoker bike rev's , shakes, and vibrates harder the faster you go... I have this motor bolted metal on metal, not sure if that's a good idea but reading on here most seem to believe it reduces frame cracking problems.. i have it as tight as i think the motor studs can hold... but dear god thing thing vibrates... my butt won't fall alseep on this bike i assure you all !..

    I estimate top speed aprox 35 km/h, pretty much on par with an average 500w electric kit, absolutely no contest for some of my over-volted amp sucking bikes, the gasser does not stand a chance.. it's gutless off the line but has ok pull mid range..

    only thing i have to give as a Win to the smoker, filling up is as easy as opening a cap and pouring it in.... but then again, filling a battery is as easy as plugging in a wire and throwing a switch.. you just have to wait for the green light a bit longer ( not such a big deal as it can happen while i enjoy a beer and cook myself a meal )

    Bottom line, electrics rule.. smokers drool. I realize that's not going to be a popular statement on this forum, but it's the honest truth to it all in my personal opinion. There is no " prefect " bicycle motor kit that will suit the needs of everyone, but pros vs cons the gasser falls short.

    Still fun to ride, i have to clean up the exhaust gasket, aparently swapping for a better pipe helps ( but if it makes it any louder, i don't think i can use it around here... and i'm in a fairly liberal area of the world ) and i'm still on my 16:1 fuel so less oil should pep things up a bit.. we'll see how it goes ! :cool:
  4. adb140275

    adb140275 Member

    i mounted mine on rubber, only vibrates when you really string it out on flat pavement
  5. Mine vibrates, is loud (mmm... SBP expansion chamber.), and smells but thats all apart of the fun for me. Plus it turns alot of heads.
  6. flashstar

    flashstar Member

    Why are you running the engine at 16:1? Never, ever run a 2 stroke on such a rich mixture. I suggest getting some quality oil and running the motor at 32:1, even when it's breaking in.

    Also, how can you honestly make the statement that electric bikes rule and gas bikes drool? If you buy a 4 stroke HS 4G kit and slap on an exhaust, the bike will pull hard enough to get scary! I can cruise at 32 mph and beat most cars off of the line. 4 strokes also get 150 mpg.

    Regardless, if you stick with the 2 stroke there are a few simple mods that you can do to beat any electric out there.

    1. Ditch the tensioner. Space the motor and chain so you get good tension.
    2. Buy a tuned pipe. If you extend the glass pack on the end, it will be quieter and much more efficient than the stock exhaust.
    3. Tune! My carburetor was so out of tune when I got it that I was losing 5 mph on the top end and a ton of acceleration.
    4. Get a NGK plug and quality ignition wire.
    5. Make some cheap mods... billet intake, billet head, aftermarket intake, etc.

    There is no way an electric could beat a 2 stroke when properly running! There are 50cc 2 stroke morini engines that put out 10 HP.
  7. Ypedal

    Ypedal Member

    How much would a guy have to spend for one of those 10hp morini's ?

    You can rest assured i fully plan to mod this poor little HT to destruction at some point in the near future..


    Out of the box, bone stock, comparing performance, these HT motors are pretty much equivalent to a 500w stock kit..

    Both sides, electric and gas powered have their extremes, i have a 5000w chopper that i'd put up against pretty much any small displacement 2 stroke or 4 stroke up to 40 mph, and my chopper is not taken to the max either..

    I have a BMX that does 75 + km/h ( 45 mph ) so electrics are no slouches when done right .. same as ICE.. tune and set them up right they can both scoot along nicely.

    I expect more refinement out of the mitsubishi with stanton gearbox, once i get that built the next step will be one of those 4 strokes with gearbox... or that morini.. sounds like alot of fun.. who sells them ?

    Different strokes for different folks , that's for sure, i totally admit enjoying the get on and go aspect without any need to consider charge level or voltage monitoring..

    The main reason i put a motor on a bicycle was to get me to work, i don't own a car and i work in an office ( tech support.. 1st level.. 15 years on the phones.. ) scent-free policy and dress codes don't mix with 2 strokes. However, if motor biking is something you do for fun only it all comes down to personal preference. Alot of people have no point of reference and only know what they read about, i can tell you with upmost certainty that it will take alot more than a few simple mods to keep up with a mid level electric.

    edit to add a few pictures, chaos is my 100v clyte 409... the chopper has an X5 at 72v

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    Last edited: Sep 19, 2010
  8. flashstar

    flashstar Member

    Ypedal, my 2 stroke is mostly for fun while my 4 stroke is mostly for commuting and weekend rides through the country (4 strokes are relatively odor-less). My point is that it's tough to spend $115 for a 2 stroke kit and expect it to outperform many electrics. HT's can be very fun, efficient, and clean if you take the time to properly configure and tune one.

    Another issue with electric bikes is that unless you invest thousands of dollars into lithium ion batteries and large motors, you have a very limited range. You also cannot easily recharge an electric bike if you are stuck somewhere away from home. I can run my HS 4G 4 stroke for 120 miles straight at 30 mph and when I run out of gas, all I need to do is stop by a gas station and pay $1.50 for another tank.

    A 500 watt electric usually goes for $250 plus the cost of the battery from what I've seen. The 5000 watt kits are thousands of dollars.

    I'm not saying that gas bikes are the best in every situation. If you are traveling in town, an electric might be more your cup of tea. Don't get me wrong. I wish that electric bikes were more developed and versatile, but as of now gas engines get the better bang for the buck and are much more versatile in almost every situation.

    Just google Morini engine and you will see different vendors. The 10 hp Morini's go for $650- $700.
  9. I have a $115 ebay motor. Stuck $250 in mods on it and I'm having a blast.

    I don't have to rely on it, or really need to go anywhere, just have fun, and bike to friends houses.
  10. Ypedal

    Ypedal Member

  11. Although that is a good indication of whats faster, how much did the eletric kit cost? I'km for sure the same money you could get a extreamly powerful gas engine.
  12. Ypedal

    Ypedal Member

    I completely agree..

    The chopper electric kit ( without batteries ): motor, controller, throttle, etc aprox 500 $

    Battery pack is a bit unique, I built it from PSI 10ah LiFePo4 cells, they are a few years old and when i got them they were the best and greatest available at 20$ US each ( x 24 cells ) + UPS shipping from taiwan + assembly parts + chargers.. etc.. i figure roughly 1500 $ EDIT :( At time of this writing, an equivalent Lipo pack could be built for 350 $ capable of much more amps.. times change fast )

    Power meter 150$, front suspension setup with avid disks anther 400... the whole bike likely has 2500$ or so in it.

    For that much cash i'm sure i could build one **** of a gasser, BUT the popo would be on me like ( Insert words this forum will not allow )... I have pulled up next to a few cruisers at red lights on the chopper without as much as a 2nd look from the men in blue, i wear my helmet and gloves, respect rules of the road and don't exceed posted speed limits.

    I'm sure i could bolt a liquid cooled motor from a CR80 on a bike but not a chance i'd get more than a few hours on the road before getting a ticket lol..

    We did go up the road to clock the HT bike, manages 50 km/h at full throttle in a tuck position.. how long can you hold these motors to the pin before they melt down ?
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2010
  13. flashstar

    flashstar Member

    Lol, melt down?

    I full throttle my two stroke constantly for miles. They can run at WOT forever, just don't jet them down until they get too lean.

    You can also build a very stealthy gas bike...

    The police never seem to care even though I blast around neighborhoods on my very loud HT.
  14. Ypedal

    Ypedal Member

    Seriously ?.. cool !.. good to know.

    I have been hunting the forum for an answer to this next one...

    How many hours do people get out of these motors before they are considered toast ? What goes first ? crank seals ? gaskets ? wrist pins ?
  15. flashstar

    flashstar Member

    If cared for, HT's can last for almost 6000 miles? It depends on a lot of factors. Mine only has 300 miles on it and it has been very reliable.

    I would make your HT carb a bit richer though. These motors last the longest if they are getting enough fuel to 4 stroke occasionally.
  16. nsxcorvette

    nsxcorvette Member

    I have built several of the HTs, but the first one I built which is my daily rider finally made its first repair request today. I ride it 20-40 miles a day, and it has around 3000-3500 miles on it. What happened was the head gasket finally gave out (and the chain tensioner broke off), which on these bikes is a 5 minute repair with a 2 dollar part. Only part that sucks is I have to order it. Other than that, the only thing I've ever replaced is the spark plug with an ngk. For 3 months of riding over 200 miles a week for less than $2 per week, I'd say it's a winner...
  17. wheelbender6

    wheelbender6 Well-Known Member

    Some guys get addicted to the ICE vibration.
  18. fm2200

    fm2200 Member

    That's real impressive about all those miles and the clutch was never replaced. This is about all you can expect from a mass produced out of balance engine. If ridden with a little respect the engine should get even more miles.
  19. putput

    putput New Member


    This is about the same as one of the ICE guys never having any experience with electric bikes, strapping a starter motor, skateboard wheel friction drive and a SLA lawn & tractor battery to some random bike with a bunch of cable ties & saying ebikes are lame because they don't have any range and slip in the rain.
  20. nsxcorvette

    nsxcorvette Member

    I for sure agree with the respect comment. I had a guy compaining that his motor started to act up after only 3 months. When asked what he used it for, he said for offroading and trail riding, jumping, etc. These engines are seriously not meant for that. If you care for them you will get a lot out of them, if you don't, you'll pay for it. Same for electric bikes... If you ride in the rain, don't charge the battery correctly, etc, then you have no right to complain... On a side note, as I'm waiting for my new head gasket to come in for my 5000 mile daily rider, I tried the coke can idea from a user on this site. I made a head gasket out of 4 sheets of ice house beer cans, and it worked fantiastic for about 20 miles before they burnt out and blew. Good idea though for a quick fix, although I ordered several headgaskets so I don't have to try that again...