72V 3000W Cyclone Electric and Gas Generator Build (SBP kit) - Three Phase Dev

bakaneko

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#1
Hello. It is time for me to build my "ultimate, final form" motorized bike. It will hopefully be a electric mid drive bike with a small, removable dc gas generator on the rear rack. The bike should be capable of doing 40mph+ and cruise easily in upper 20s and with only the battery (2 kwH) do 30-40 miles at cruise (no wind, no elevation). With the gas generator, I am not sure on the range it will depend on the engine that I can get and if it all works out but I am hoping for some impressive stats with minimum noise (high idle rev). I decided to go this route instead of a 79cc+ motor because I really like the near instant torque, efficiency, and low noise of electric motors, but I am also realistic about the range hence the gas generator. This model is currently being used in most modern locomotives and cruise ships due to power efficiency curves.

I will be using a Walmart Huffy Nighthawk bike that currently has a 500W rear hub motor. I tried to sell this before starting the new build but no serious bids this late into the season so I will just use it. The batteries will be hoverboard/scooter 36V 4.4aH batteries hooked up in parallel then series for 72V. I will be doing this in 3 phases to properly test everything and not overwhelm myself. It should probably take me into spring to get everything correct.

Phase 1 - Upgrading to the 72V 3000W Cyclone SBP mid drive kit from 36V 500W hub drive
Phase 2 - Adding max batteries from 1.2 kwH to 2 kwH and adding wind break fairings and clear pocket bike wind shield
Phase 3 - Adding the 25-49cc gas generator (200-600W) output to the rear rack

Here is the design. Battery1 and B2 are already on the bike. Originally, I did not know where a third battery pack can go but after watching some YouTube videos of big power DYI ebike riders they make a right and left battery compartment (B3) near the stem of the bike to house the batteries. I was gonna put it under the downtube... B3 will allow me to put in a wind fairing too and with a windshield. I should be able to tuck under this to get real aerodynamic? The added weight of B3 should also help prevent the bike from undesired wheelies. All the batteries are removable with simple nuts and bolts for winter and storage. Let me know if there is any concerns with this design. Pic of current bike too.

Also, this will be a minimal cost build. Not that I am gonna cheap out on absolutely necessary items but it wont be top of the line components and do a lot of DYI. I will do a thorough documentation of this build and thought analysis. The hybrid concept is cool. I know some electric bike guys would never go gas generator and mebe some gas heads here scoof at the range of ebikes, but hopefully this hybrid will be both extremely gas and pollution efficient and also have an incredible 2-3x range of current ebikes. And, the generator is optional and can be easily removed with a few nuts and bolts.
 

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bakaneko

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#2
So, trying to do minimal cost... I think with this wiring diagram one for charging and one for riding. I only need minimal connectors. Let me know if there are any concerns. My only thought is one battery wiring is going to be considerably longer than the other...

With this wiring, I wont need to replace my watt meter (only up to 60V) or charger since it is still at 36V. I will just double the power reading and the aH used will be halfed or wait is it actual. Okay, I think it is actual (16 aH). I will just need 3 new connectors to make it work below.

1. XT60 Male to XT90 Female (2x)
2. XT90 series connector 2 Male to 1 Female

This way I don't have to disconnect my current watt meter and a majority of the wiring of the 500W bike. But, yeah, I will test with multimeter.
 

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junglepig

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#3
Hello. It is time for me to build my "ultimate, final form" motorized bike. It will hopefully be a electric mid drive bike with a small, removable dc gas generator on the rear rack. The bike should be capable of doing 40mph+ and cruise easily in upper 20s and with only the battery (2 kwH) do 30-40 miles at cruise (no wind, no elevation). With the gas generator, I am not sure on the range it will depend on the engine that I can get and if it all works out but I am hoping for some impressive stats with minimum noise (high idle rev). I decided to go this route instead of a 79cc+ motor because I really like the near instant torque, efficiency, and low noise of electric motors, but I am also realistic about the range hence the gas generator. This model is currently being used in most modern locomotives and cruise ships due to power efficiency curves.

I will be using a Walmart Huffy Nighthawk bike that currently has a 500W rear hub motor. I tried to sell this before starting the new build but no serious bids this late into the season so I will just use it. The batteries will be hoverboard/scooter 36V 4.4aH batteries hooked up in parallel then series for 72V. I will be doing this in 3 phases to properly test everything and not overwhelm myself. It should probably take me into spring to get everything correct.

Phase 1 - Upgrading to the 72V 3000W Cyclone SBP mid drive kit from 36V 500W hub drive
Phase 2 - Adding max batteries from 1.2 kwH to 2 kwH and adding wind break fairings and clear pocket bike wind shield
Phase 3 - Adding the 25-49cc gas generator (200-600W) output to the rear rack

Here is the design. Battery1 and B2 are already on the bike. Originally, I did not know where a third battery pack can go but after watching some YouTube videos of big power DYI ebike riders they make a right and left battery compartment (B3) near the stem of the bike to house the batteries. I was gonna put it under the downtube... B3 will allow me to put in a wind fairing too and with a windshield. I should be able to tuck under this to get real aerodynamic? The added weight of B3 should also help prevent the bike from undesired wheelies. All the batteries are removable with simple nuts and bolts for winter and storage. Let me know if there is any concerns with this design. Pic of current bike too.

Also, this will be a minimal cost build. Not that I am gonna cheap out on absolutely necessary items but it wont be top of the line components and do a lot of DYI. I will do a thorough documentation of this build and thought analysis. The hybrid concept is cool. I know some electric bike guys would never go gas generator and mebe some gas heads here scoof at the range of ebikes, but hopefully this hybrid will be both extremely gas and pollution efficient and also have an incredible 2-3x range of current ebikes. And, the generator is optional and can be easily removed with a few nuts and bolts.
 

bakaneko

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#7
Thanks guys. I'll thoroughly update this thread but not to the point of obsessive compulsion. I'll take a look at that material CrazyDan. I am not the first to do this but I will document it really well here and when finish compare it with 2-stroke, 4-stroke, and electric bikes to see the exact price to reliability and performance. Here I am using an expensive 3000w motor but you can find cheap 500-1000W hub motors for $120-170 and tag on a buffer battery for $100 and then a gas-generator for $200-300. And, it might come out to around $500 (less a bike). Is this based on reliability and performance (speed & range) better than the other options? We'll see...
 

bakaneko

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#9
Yes, I've seen these. But, it is actually very large for a rear rack. And, the 600W output is AC and DC is usually like 100W. The DC generator I am planning to make is going to be much smaller where it is hardly noticeable on the rear rack. I feel these AC/DC generators will make the bike stand out too much and be top heavy. Also, there is an unnecessary conversion to AC there. There was a 500W one of these that was very small from Power Generators or something but it is not made anymore and impossible to find.

But that does bring up a good point. The actual DC generator cost needs to be around this generator plus a fast charger = $150 + $75 = $225

That Lifan generator will look something like this. I think its a bit too tall. I want mine to be about 1/2 that height at the end.

 
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CrazyDan

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#11
Yes, I've seen these. But, it is actually very large for a rear rack. And, the 600W output is AC and DC is usually like 100W. The DC generator I am planning to make is going to be much smaller where it is hardly noticeable on the rear rack. I feel these AC/DC generators will make the bike stand out too much and be top heavy. Also, there is an unnecessary conversion to AC there. There was a 500W one of these that was very small from Power Generators or something but it is not made anymore and impossible to find.

But that does bring up a good point. The actual DC generator cost needs to be around this generator plus a fast charger = $150 + $75 = $225

That Lifan generator will look something like this. I think its a bit too tall. I want mine to be about 1/2 that height at the end.

Thats exactly what I imagine when I think about what a series hybrid would look like. I would think mounting the generator in one of those 1 wheel child trailers would keep it from being top heavy.
 

bakaneko

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#12
Yeah, we will see. It is the last phase so have time to think about it. I am looking for a good price on a Honda GX25 or clone. If the generator is a dud, I'll just add it to a Staton friction drive. But, we will see.
 

bakaneko

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#14
So, I got the motor today (nice 2day shipping) and have it assembled to the point where I just need to put it on and tighten a few bolts and rings. But, I decided to do an experiment before switching over to 72V and run it at 36V, which will allow me to keep my watt meter and charger. I want to see how the cyclone motor compares to the 500W brushless rear hub motor in terms of speed (different gears), range (mile per aH), and acceleration at the same power (watt).

If the performance is good (cruise at 25-30 mph) and top speed (35-40) then I might keep it at 36V but I have to be drawing a lot of amps to achieve these speeds. I have the tools and connectors on the way. Will upgrade my 14AWG wire from my 36V 500W bike to 10AWG before testing the Cyclone at 36V. At 72V, it will run on minimal wiring and 10AWG.

Also, the other thing I am thinking is that the gas generator will produce 24V (300-600W) and with the 72V system I will have to step up 24V to 84V, which is the upper limit of that converter and a lot to ask. But, with the 36V, I will only need to step up to 42V (charging, max) which is much more reasonable to ask the step-up converter.

Hope to get it all assembled and ready to go at 36V by the end of this weekend.
 

bakaneko

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#16
Actually, here is the concept done extremely well. I need to take a closer look at the YouTube videos. I missed this one in my search. This is really well done; noticed how everything is seamless (i.e. not a huge generator block on rear rack or on a trailer). He is running a 48V system rear hub (1000W?) and charging at like 52V 4-6 amps with really little engine noise; feels like a low idle. Very, very cool and well done. In other news, none of my tools or wires/connectors are here yet so probably can't get anything done by the end of this weekend.

Build

Ride
 
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CrazyDan

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#17
Series hybrid done to perfection. I don't much prefer the steampunk look but it fits that build, with the fire and all. Think it was an 18650 lipo bank fire? Makes me want to either use sla or capacitors instead of those huge potential fire hazards if I went hybrid.
 
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#18
Why not just stay at 36 volts... Jackshaft a 49cc or 66cc 2 stroke or a 44cc 4stroke to a My1016 or better yet my1020 scooter motor. Run a 36 volt motor controller and a 36 volt wind / solar charger to the my1016. Each with its own seperate on/off switch to the my1016 it will produce about 300 watts for you when you run under gas power. And it will already be a midrive system for much cheaper but takes full advantage of a gas motor. Then you already have the 500 watt hub motor. With the scootor motor and the hub you can push out 800 watts. Or 500 watts while charging 300.
But when charging that hot you will need a more forgiving battery setup than lith-ion. 3x 12 volt 5 to 9 amp lead-acid or if you can afford the gel deep cycle scooter batteries and you have your hybrid. I hope to make a hybrid one this way by this spring also because I will need it during the summer. I will be off grid alot.
 

bakaneko

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#19
Why not just stay at 36 volts... Jackshaft a 49cc or 66cc 2 stroke or a 44cc 4stroke to a My1016 or better yet my1020 scooter motor. Run a 36 volt motor controller and a 36 volt wind / solar charger to the my1016. Each with its own seperate on/off switch to the my1016 it will produce about 300 watts for you when you run under gas power. And it will already be a midrive system for much cheaper but takes full advantage of a gas motor. Then you already have the 500 watt hub motor. With the scootor motor and the hub you can push out 800 watts. Or 500 watts while charging 300.
But when charging that hot you will need a more forgiving battery setup than lith-ion. 3x 12 volt 5 to 9 amp lead-acid or if you can afford the gel deep cycle scooter batteries and you have your hybrid. I hope to make a hybrid one this way by this spring also because I will need it during the summer. I will be off grid alot.

Yeah, I will test to see if I stay at 36V. The benefits of 36V is I don't need a new charger or watt meter and probably more efficient with the gas generator. 800W will get me to 27 mph (no wind, no grade) but that is at max speed and the building philosophy is to build a 40mph bike so I can cruise comfortably at 27-33 mph. I chose to do single electric drive due to reliability and complexity : electric engine drive and separate gas generator running at high idle. Ideally, I would have done a 1500W+ rear hub to make it even more reliable (than mid drive) but that option wasn't easily available with my 36V li-ion pack batteries without a new controller and would have been more than a 24-72V compatible Cyclone motor from SBP (also all things being equal would like to support SBP). The 36V li-ion pack can take up to 5A charging but I have these in parallel 3x and 32aH so 300W should be fine.

72V will give me more torque and top speed. It will also lessen the current draw load on the batteries as it will require half as much current as 36V. The battery pack is older 18650 cells so they are suspect to voltage sag and also cannibalistic current-capacity draw (not sure of right term) so a high voltage helps that a lot. Also, I want to explore the option of having a standard high voltage on retail ebikes (36 to 48V). By upping the standard voltage, I believe ebikes can have better performance, range, and battery longevity. There is a reason why long distance power lines are running at 155 to 765 kV and Teslas at 375V.

But, we shall see. I am getting the tools and parts now. I just need the lock ring wrench to start working... Yeah, take a look at this thread and learn from my mistakes. I might skip phase 2 and go directly to phase 3 after finishing the Cyclone conversion. Depending on if I stay at 36 or change to 72V, that extra battery wiring setup with motor and charger might be iffy at 72V (uneven capacity on charging wire) without rewiring my 2 battery banks.

In terms of batteries, if you are going the 36V or 72V route, just get the hoverboard/scooter 36V 4.4aH li-ion packs. They are literally $30-45 mebe even cheaper sometimes and that is even better cost than an SLA, which 5x weigh more and has 1/5 the capacity and current capabilities of these packs. Many DYI ebikers used them and they are good low cost option to the 500-1000$ premium retail li-ion packs from retailers out there. I've put at least 1500 miles on these batteries this summer and fall and they are good.
 
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#20
The li -ions shouldnt be charged at more than 3amp making them not that safe to fast charge. (So at 36 volt you can charge at about 90 watts continuously) Why run a generator that is 2 different motors (the gas motor running the electric motor)then an electric motor after? Shouldnt all 3 motors be able to push the bike on its own and combined give either top speed or unstoppable climbing power all depending on how you geared the jackshaft. The generator/ electric bike has been done it doesnt get better range than a 2 stroke from what ive read on this site about 130 mpg has been best achieves going that route. Compared to a 2 stroke with a hub motor added they have reported increased power and range with that set up. U get close to 100 to 150 mpg just off the gas motor no electric help.
 

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