Cleaner burning 2 stroke engines...

[arceeguy]

No i think your wrong but as i said its pointless debating with someone with your attitude, you LOVE your ICE and wont consider any alternative can be as good as it...fair enough your entitled to your opinion, i think your wrong we shall agree to disagree.

Someone with MY attitude? That's a good one.

I'll put this too you though, If small ICE motors are so great why do electric motors of comparable size have more Torque AND thats instantaneousness maximum torque? be very interesting to hear how you turn this around....

ROFL - turn what around? While your technical tidbit is indeed fact, it is irrelevant. You need to explain why electric motors are not the dominant source of power in things like lawn mowers, ATV's, motorcycles, cars, etc.
Electric motors dominate where they make sense, they are all over the place from pager vibrators to elevators.

What!@!#@!@>>> goodness me cant take light hearted banter i see..need a tissue ?

Have a nice day...

KiM

I forgot the "Jester" is your name, so now I get that you are defending the indefensible in the name of humor! Please accept my humble apologies, and please continue with the farce. I can't wait to see what you'll come up with next! (without actually explaining why ICE's dominate the outdoor power equipment market)

 

[Parah_Salin]

I'm gonna agree with the people saying that the Eco-Gastapo are trying to kill the internal combustion engine. Go on autoblog green- anything sugesting any type of engine (as in not electric motor) might actually be good and you get a swarm of these guys talking about lithium ion batteries and stuff (never mind the fact that most of them couldn't even tell the positive from the negitive end of such a battery)

The main advantage small, carburated engines have is price and portability. Having a liquid (gasoline) that gets turned into power on the spot is alot more convinient than stooring power in expensive, heavy, chemical batteries.

 

[arceeguy]

Our son-in-law is an engineer with Freescale locally. His specialty is automotive products and these would be his area.

Not sure this is one of his products, but all the engineers seem to get into all of their products one way or an other.

Anyway I emailed him regarding oil injection control for 2 strokes? The mechanical oil injector on my 1970 Yamaha 175 trail really cleaned it up over the prior engines that were pre-mix. I would guess it is still plenty dirty. The stroke of the oil pump was controlled by the throttle position. As I recall the mix could go as high as 250:1?

Will advise if I learn anything.

Jim

Jim,

my understanding is that the fuel-oil pre-mix is not the major source of pollution in a two stroke. It is the ineffecient scavenging mechanism that makes them "dirty". Their advantages are that they are powerful for their size and weight, and simple. Direct injection two strokes run a lot cleaner, but have significantly raised the cost of the equipment that uses the technology. I don't want to see laws get so restrictive, that little handheld ICE's get regulated out of existence and we get stuck with wimpy yard equipment that needs extension cords or have batteries that don't last long enough to get the job done.

 

[AussieJester]

You need to explain why electric motors are not the dominant source of power in things like lawn mowers, ATV's, motorcycles, cars, etc

So its gone from small ICE motors in whipper snippers and lawnmowers to cars and bikes... Ok..i shall try my best to enlighten you to my thinking...

Small powered ICE motors in whipper snippers lawn mowers etc are dirt cheap to produce correct? This you have already said so we are agreeable on that point, are you aware of the cost of the latest battery technologies? Im guessing not or you wouldnt be wondering why... It would cost ALOT more dollar to produce the lawnmower capable of doing the job of the ICE, it would also be the next to last cost the manufacturer would get from the buyer, electric motors need no parts, they have one moving part, how much business sense does it make to produce something that requires next to no after sale service? Combine this with the higher production costs resulting in lower profits and i think its pretty obvious...

If you wish to discuss why cars and bikes are all swapping over to ICE happy to give my view there although this had nothing to do with your OP.

We have been dependent on oil for hundred years to run motors, the infrastructure is in place to support this habit, from fuel stations to service centres, engine re conditioners etc etc the list is never ending, how many of these will be needed when cars and bikes are electric? How many billions of dollars will be lost in after market sales and service, fuel sales, spare parts sales etc etc etc... how many millions will lose there jobs simply because their skills are no longer required because the cars they worked on no longer exist? Our society is geared towards internal combustions engines just because it is doesn't mean it is superior for ALL jobs that it currently used for.
As battery technology advances and becomes cheaper and thus more profitable for companies to produce electric ONLY cars we will see more hit the roads like it or not.(personally i think it will suck ***..OH yeah didn't i mention that i hate electric cars and Motorcycles HAHA im a V8 man and ex-motorcycle racer...I use electric in my trike now because its BETTER than the only other "legal" alternative) At present we see hybrids why? the best battery tech is outrageously expensive (checkout the Tesla electric supercars battery tag price) BIG companies making cars for the average buyer ofset the cost by making hybrids, this allows the use of cheaper batteries OR less of the dearer, it also provides the comapnies with further revenue from after market sales as the hybrids have still got the ICE motors...aaaaad thus the dependence on oil and the infrastructure setup to provide it.

Thats it for me...apologies if i offended you though was never my intention shall leave you to it

Have a nice day

KiM

 

[jimraysr]

Electric Or Ice?

I have not done an in depth study on electric power, but have read enough to know there are dirty factors involved on the other end of charging my battery. The advantage is the pollution is localized. Palo Verde NGS generates its power in AZ and much is sent to CA where they would not have allowed the plant to be built. That is clean power for CA.

The shadow effect of large solar fields has a weather result. Wind farms also create problems. Hydro causes hysteresis effects down stream. (Glen Canyon and the Colorado River is a local example) Nuclear is clean, but has a major waste heat discharge plus water vapor. Likewise fossil fueled plants also have those plus by products of the burning process.

I have 690 AH (6 golf cart batteries) of batteries in our motor home. Getting them charged is not a clean process and the acid fumes are a hassel.

Gentlemen, I cannot stay abreast with you in the discussion, but I do know convenience, readely available refueling or refilling of the energy source and economy will continue to drive most of the market.

Last I knew many of the diesel train engines are two cycle. I believe they use crankcase blowers for the fuel air charge? I am not sure how they improve the scavenging losses? Will consult with a buddy who was a Illinois Central mechanic in his past life.

Have a nice day, unless you have plans otherwise. )

Jim

 

[arceeguy]

.....Small powered ICE motors in whipper snippers lawn mowers etc are dirt cheap to produce correct? This you have already said so we are agreeable on that point, are you aware of the cost of the latest battery technologies? Im guessing not or you wouldnt be wondering why... It would cost ALOT more dollar to produce the lawnmower capable of doing the job of the ICE, it would also be the next to last cost the manufacturer would get from the buyer, electric motors need no parts, they have one moving part, how much business sense does it make to produce something that requires next to no after sale service? Combine this with the higher production costs resulting in lower profits and i think its pretty obvious.........

........Thats it for me...apologies if i offended you though was never my intention shall leave you to it

Have a nice day

KiM

Yup, it's always some sort of corporate conspiracy with people like yourself. The electric motors themselves need little maintenance, but the batteries need to be replaced periodically, at great expense. Sounds to me like the evil corporations making batteries would love people like you. And all of a sudden your a "V8 guy"? Uh huh. Like I said, electric mowers and string trimmers can't compete with their ICE powered brothers. If they did, the market will shift on it's own. And yes, I'll throw in ATV's and other ICE powered recreational vehicles because their engines are being subject to some draconian emission laws too.

Go ahead and rally for super tight emissions on small engines. Because the same government you want to ban ICE's is already on it's way to banning motorized bikes in OZ. 200 Watt power limit on ebikes in OZ. Hahaha! Happy pedaling! My RC cars put out more than that!

Also, I don't know why you think you've somehow offended me. If anything, this discussion is rather amusing. Keep yappin'!

 

[Parah_Salin]

I hate the whole "When Batteries come down in price..." thing, because it's just silly. The demand for batteries is rising (not just for electric motors, cell phones, laptops, ect...), so it's not like they will all of a suddon be cheap

 

[loquin]

I want to clear up one point. Coal fired power plants plants currently in use are MUCH cleaner than IC engines - even IC engines currently on cars. The emissions per KW are much lower, as they use controls and scrubbing technology that isn't practical to use on small installations (like internal combustion engines.) And, they're getting cleaner. There's also some innovative technology that can produce biodiesel from the exhaust gases.

Furthermore, since the boilers are using external combustion, certain emissions are practically non-existent in the stack to begin with.

On the whole, while there are some emissions associated with the generation of power commercially, those emissions are much lower than using fossil fuel locally, in small IC engines.

That being said, today's technology doesn't currently support the practical replacement of small IC engines with electric motors.

 

[arceeguy]

Current battery technology is pretty fragile too.
Lithium batteries can be damaged by over discharge. While they have protection circuits to cut off before they get too low, all a user has to do is store a pack that cut off, and it will self discharge below the point of no return within a few weeks. I can see this happening to yard equipment. Many lead acid batteries in current lawn equipment are damaged in the same manner. (being stored over winter in a discharged state)

The electric "revolution" will happen after I am dead. For now, fuel from algae (in effect, solar power) looks promising. It is a way to capture and store the energy from the sun and use existing infrastructure to distribute. But jester won't be happy because it still involves the use of the ICE.

 

[jimraysr]

To live in a cave or not, that is the question. )

You are correct, but still not factoring in the waste heat into the atmosphere in the form of latent heat holding the water evaporated by the cooling towers. This must have some effect. The power grid has something on the order of 30 to 35% loss in transmission? That kills a lot of the so called plant efficiency.

I am playing devils advocate here as I made a lot of my living from sales of products to power plants, so am prejudice in their favor. I love my 4 KW two cylinder generator on the motor home as it gives me a degree of self sufficiency. Limited of course by my fuel stores. Like wise I added a little 600 watt Honda generator that we bought over 30 years ago for batttery charging.

I want to clear up one point. Coal fired power plants plants currently in use are MUCH cleaner than IC engines - even IC engines currently on cars. The emissions per KW are much lower, as they use controls and scrubbing technology that isn't practical to use on small installations (like internal combustion engines.) And, they're getting cleaner. There's also some innovative technology that can produce biodiesel from the exhaust gases.

Furthermore, since the boilers are using external combustion, certain emissions are practically non-existent in the stack to begin with.

On the whole, while there are some emissions associated with the generation of power commercially, those emissions are much lower than using fossil fuel locally, in small IC engines.

That being said, today's technology doesn't currently support the practical replacement of small IC engines with electric motors.