Whizzer NER Engine Mods-Questions for the experts

Discussion in 'Whizzer Motorized Bicycles' started by Mike Notigan, Apr 11, 2011.

  1. Mike Notigan

    Mike Notigan Member

    Hi Everybody,
    I'm looking for advice/opinions on modifying the engine on my Whizzer NER. I bought the bike in spring of 1999 and as of now she is still not tiltled to run on the road. That's another story! In the meantime in the Whizzer world a lot has happened....Whizzer USA no longer imports the NER, let alone any Whizzer...NE5 parts are drying up, in particular the cylinder and finally, after a few miles on the road it is now known that the NER had some iffy engineering; a problematic cylinder assy with a steel "cassette" for the valves, inadequate cooling fin height for the cylinder head....**** thinwall tires.....Inferior metallrurgy (Thank You Taiwan)....CVT drive that slowed the bike compared to the NE5. My goal for my NER is to look at each area of the bike to see if it can be improved for better reliability. I think it's doable, it's a matter of parts availabilty and or money in some areas. Here's my questions:

    1. Has anyone used or considered using Jet Hot coatings or an equivilant for coating the cylinder head/cylinder barrel and exhaust pipe to cut down on the high temps of the Whizzer engine?
    2. Has anyone used or considered using Jet Hot coatings or an equivilant dry film anti-friction coating for the piston dome/piston skirt and the cam/cam gear/gear train and lifters?
    3. In replacing the NER cylinder head and block, what are your opinions on the Woodstock Whizzer cast iron cylinder with the Westman cylinder head versus trying to locate an NE5 cylinder and head. Would a Westman cylinder and head treated with the Jet Hot ceramic coating be a viable thing to do and would it cut down the expected heat soak from the cast iron cylinder?
    4. Did the NE5 cylinder block threaded heads have the problem of stripping out due to poor heat treatment of the aluminum casting?
    5. When I've run my NER for short periods in the garage, the heat buildup is incredible. That's what got me into thinking about the Jet Hot treatment. Since the Whizzer has no pressure-fed oil system combined with an 8 ounce oil reservoir it's not suprising to me that the Whizzer runs so hot.
    Well, I suppose that's enough for now...I'd appreciate any and all input on this, especially from the Whizzer folks with the extensive experience in the bikes' quirks. As of now, I purchased and installed Quentons' mushroom lifters and had him mill the cylinder head (2009) but looking at that goofy valve cassete held in by a socket bolt got me into thinking that there has to be a better way.

  2. alberndt

    alberndt New Member

    Can't answer your questions about Jet Hot coatings etc. but will relate my experience with the NER, just emailed a question to Quention as here is the saga of my adventure. I purchased the NER in Sept. of 2009, got it to running, but it just ran rough/hot and was not smooth. With about 250 miles or so on it, I sent it to Quenton and he reworked the engine/cylinder head and sent it back to me. First problem after that was the stator. Two of them went bad before I really got it running correctly. Then the clutch bearings went out and replaced them. Finally got it running good/replaced the tires with 2.5" tires and made a world of difference. I just passed 820 miles on the thing, got it licensed in Nebraska with a plate and it was running 28-30 mph at 4000 rpms and had it up to in excess of 35 a couple of times with no problem. I was changing the oil/40W at 100 miles and thought everything was going as good as could be expected.
    Anyway, tonight I started it to go for a ride and it backfired as was starting it and blew blue smoke through the carb. Got it started and now it is smoking like a mosquito fogger/absolutely filled the garage. I am at my wits end with the thing and need to figure out what to do. Enjoyed riding the darn thing/brakes/etc. but absolutely no reliability with it what so ever.
    As a side note, I have an EZ on a schwinn springer that just changed from slip clutch first version to the Qmatic with a belt drive. The HS has a total of 950 miles on it and is as trouble free as free could be and it will run 22-25 mph with absolutely no problems what so ever.
  3. Mike Notigan

    Mike Notigan Member

    Thanks for the quick reply back. I'm sorry to hear about your NER. Maybe us NER owners need to have a separate section onto the Whizzer section itself. I'll defer to Quenton, MotorbikeMike, KilroyCD and the other guys as to what your actual problem is, but it seems to me that possibly the sealing of your piston rings failed or that steel "valve cassette" thats' bolted to the cylinder block lost whatever seal it's supposed to have. Please let me know your findings. From what I've gathered here, a failure for one person is a failure to be for others too! Ditto for a happy outcome. I don't know what a baseline compression reading should be for our NERs', but I would bet that if you took a compression reading now, you would find it very low.
    Yesterday after cutting the grass I was looking at the cylinder head of the 6.5 hp Tecumseh engine on my lawn mower and noted the depth and number of the cooling fins on the cylinder head, later I broke out the NER and just could not get over what they were thinking when the manufacturer casted our cylinder heads! I have noted Quentons remarks over the years about the workmanship of the Taiwan Whizzer but they seem to have fallen on deaf ears. I've noticed too many people with NER and Ambassador problems for it to be just a one-off coincidence.
    I like your smaller width tire solution. I'm looking at putting on some Schwalbe Fat Franks in brown (2.35") and chucking out the Kenda Flames with the paper thin sidewalls. Another aside on the Kendas: they are so wide that the bike stand cannot retract fully in the up position cause the tire hits the stand about 3/4 of the way up! Who engineers this stuff, right?
    Back to the engine: hopefully Quenton and the other fellas can chime in their thoughts. I'm curious as to whether the ceramic coatings can help dissipate the heat that we experience on our NER's. Good luck with yours, keep us posted and I'll be sure to let you and other fellow NER owners of anything I come across as time goes by.
    Take Care,
  4. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Mike,

    Heat coating will help reduce the operating temperature. All new edition Whizzer run hot, but the fin-less head [NE-r & Ambassador] adds more than 85 degrees over normal. I managed to use my mill and cut the area between the fins deeper, and add additional fins, therefore reducing the temperature to previous levels [still too hot, but much better]. Please note to be very careful when cutting deeper fins, because the area near the left rear head bolt is minimum [.025"] and could cause a "hot spot".

    Concerning the valve module..........If you 'deck" the top of the cylinder it will reduce the height of the screws holding it in place. The major issue with the valve module is it hits part of the head [decking will fix this issue].

    Another area to consider is the head gasket! The stock gasket [steel or copper] doesn't even come close to matching the combustion chamber. The motor will run cooler if the copper head gasket EXACTLY matched the head pattern. The current version allows the explosion to seep into the areas between the head and cylinder, and not only effects power, but causes the system to develope an un-even squish pattern.

    The Westman cylinder [cast iron] will work, but takes a lot of effort to get it correct. It should never be ordered with the large valves as they require the valve pockets in the head to be too close to the corner head bolts [often blows head gasket] The Westman head, however isn't one of my favorite choices. Sadly even though the head has tall fins, the metal used doesn't do well in reducing the operating temperature, and the combustion chamber is really rough [requires some serios work to smooth it out].

    If possible to locate, all earlier NE heads are better than the "fin-less" version used on the NE-r & Ambassador.

    I had an expert make the majority of my personal heads, and managed to aquire a few for others, however he is currently too busy to make any soon. I will continue to work on supplying his PERFECT version of the tall finned NE head as soon as he finds time to do so.

    If anyone needs more information, please ask or email me at quincy163@yahoo.com

    Have fun,
  5. Mike Notigan

    Mike Notigan Member

    Hi Quenton,
    Many thanks for your response and I personally want to thank you for your efforts over the years in trying to perfect the modern Whizzer motorbike. Using this new fangled internet talk, I guess you can say I've been "lurking" for several years now and I've found your discussions on the Whizzer (and your EZ Motorbike) to be thought provoking and educational.
    As of now the debate for me is to whether keep the NER block and head or wait to see if a NE5 block and head comes available or go with the Westman cast iron block and head (modified as per your advice). Your advice on the big valve iron head was appreciated. I'm more interested in a nice solid motor, sort of like the standard 350 Chevy that runs on regular vice the LT-1 solid lifter high compression 350!
    I've seen on the Ebay Whizzer section that a cylinder block is available and it appears to me that it is not an NER block as the photo indicates it does not have the steel valve module.
    Either way, whatever direction I go, the heat treating and dry film anti-friction coating will be applied. Prior to this I plan on getting some baseline idle temps using an infrared heat temp gun. Will post this info once I get the ball rolling of which head and cylinder to use.
    Is it your opinion that what I'm seeing on ebay is in fact an NE5 cylinder block?
  6. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Hi Mike,

    Sadly the vendor in Taiwan doesn't always "speak the truth", as he has sent several with the valve block module, even when asked not to.

    Some received the NE cylinder with the individual seats, and some did not.

    If he were to send the correct version [like the picture on EBay], it was still "short cured" and will need to be re-cured.

    He also lists the cylinder with a head [NE-r or Ambassador], but is the Hi temperature version.

    Try replacing your current head bolts with a high grade version and the head will stay tight and may aid in reducing temperature [loose heads run hotter].

    Have fun,
  7. Mike Notigan

    Mike Notigan Member

    Hi Quenton,
    Thanks for the info! Sure seems like a case of "caveat emptor" regarding the aluminum ebay head I mentioned.....and having never done anything on ebay before it sure would be my luck to get exactly what I now have (and stripped and crumbly head threads to boot! Your input is priceless to me and in your words I know you have the experience to back up what you say!

    Now, about that CVT transmission..............

    (I'll keep you and the readers informed as I gather my parts together and what I find. It won't be an overnight project for sure.....but she's gonna get done)

    Take care,
  8. The rings in these engine's are not aligned correct

    Attached Files:

  9. I run kenda 26"x1.75 koss police great tire for these bikes
  10. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    All of the issues with the WC-1, NE5, NE-r, Ambassador, and Ambassador II models have been worked out over the last several years. The early manual clutches can be upgraded to an American made clutch drive, as can the auto clutches on 2001 to 2009, the CVT can also be converted to the American made auto clutch, the heads can be milled and cut on top to add deep fins, we had copper head gaskets made to actually match the various heads, side cover bearing replacement kits, oil vent systems, AX primary belts, head bolt washer kits, cylinder hi performance upgrades, racing pistons up to .080" O.S., hi lift camshafts, etc, etc. My 1999 has over 30,000 miles and motor was last worked on in 2005. The biggest change I made to my Ambassador [rare early version] was to get those trashy tires off and replace with quality 26 X 2.125s. It added a lot of pep because of the slight ratio advantage, and the speedometer was now accurate. Motor & clutch doing fine, but replaced starter and battery 2 times. Will say with the smaller tires it rides better and doesn't "float" down the road, much more solid ride.

    If anyone needs help with any of these motors or drive systems, just ask..

    Have fun,
  11. mason_man

    mason_man Active Member

    The CVT, is one of the best thing about this NE-R. What are you talking about?
    The cylinder can go through many upgrades,and has.
    Let me know Quenton,if you need help.
    Got one with the 26mm carb, not the 16mm carb.
    Ray 20160807_160427.jpg 20160806_141910.jpg
  12. mason_man

    mason_man Active Member

    Post pictures, make it real.:)

  13. mason_man

    mason_man Active Member

    The AX Belt is to short, hits the bottom of the belt guard post.Can't make any real Adjustment.clutch pulley is hard to pull in for the slip clutch.
    XL Belt,for me is a better choice. I can make better adjustments to belts and rear wheel Pedal chain.

    Ray 2014-08-24 20.30.49.jpg
  14. Steve Best

    Steve Best Well-Known Member

    Call me weird Mason, but I want to but a reedbox and carb on that spring and lifter box!
    Is there any hope for me?
    "Take 2 Briggs and call me in the morning..."
  15. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Thrilled you like the CVT, however I average about 3 calls a week about CVT drive issues. Many are in the process of converting to auto clutch, just tired of CVT problems. Problems include broken shafts[both front & rear], extreme poor take off, CVT not reaching final ratio at WOT, and pedal starting the NE-r. Unlike the Ambassador II the NE-r doesn't have a mounting plate to maintain the distance from the crankshaft and rear drive clutch and is very difficult to keep adjusted correctly. Another issues with the NE-r is in order to pedal start the front belt must be slightly tight in order to start motor, and this limits the front CVT drive to fully open at higher RPMs. Sadly I have worked on many Ambassador II and NE-r models and just happy I don't own one.

    Have fun,
  16. mason_man

    mason_man Active Member

    Shaft broke because of bad adjustment. That's all.
    NE-R with a 1"intake valve,26mm carb.

  17. mason_man

    mason_man Active Member

    And a #145 main jet for the carb.

  18. mason_man

    mason_man Active Member

    Just rode me 6 miles this morning.
    No ill effects. Kenda flames feel good. CVT...Good, maybe the extra hp is all it needed. Lightening the cam.....yeah!
    No Stress for the motor.That was the Gold, from the very start. ;)
    Ask me about the other cylinders :)

  19. Quenton Guenther

    Quenton Guenther Motored Bikes Sponsor

    Important to note, no one has ever been able to stay with my Whizzers, and I hold the majority of speed records [never been beat, ever] on the east coast.
    Most of my records are due to camshaft and valve train designs. I have tested over 25 camshafts and compiled data on each, including the "box car" camshaft used with roller lifters. I use a larger than 1" intake, and a camshaft with a .210" lift and lobe centers of 102. My 20" drag bike will travel to 40.3 MPH in 150 feet with the front wheel off the ground for the first 10 feet. Motor turns over 8,000 RPMs on aviation fuel. enjoy pictures

    Attached Files:

  20. mason_man

    mason_man Active Member

    20160919_170727.jpg 20160919_170727.jpg 20160925_120423.jpg 20160515_160620-1.jpg 20160606_204743.jpg I like my sportsmans, too much to do something like that to it. Small wheels and 50mm clutch, what can you expect in 150 feet.
    I've got all that and some, in this H model whizzer. Cranks Been knifed,and the con rod beam,Weights been shifted.
    No, I'm kinda ahead of all that,and stock.