Hub vs mid drive?

[B Bassett]

...once i put my 217 pounds on that seat, you can kiss off anything to do with so-called "center of gravity"...

It's a different world when you aren't just holding the throttle open and riding on a smooth surface for 20 whole miles. If your aforementioned 200+ weight is perched on the seat all the time then you are probably right. If you are standing on the peddles of an unloaded ebike and actually using them while riding the bike over uneven surfaces up and down steep inclines on single-track the center of gravity (not so-called... the actual C/G) drops to the bottom bracket much of the time making the bike far more agile and stable, add a full suspension to that and things just keep getting better. Strap 5 lbs. to your helmet sometime and see if the placement of unsuspended weight matters. Hell, even a light or GoPro on my helmet can affect the ride and definitely my comfort. But hey, everyone sees things the way they want... there are individuals that believe that Mr. Trump is still president. It's not hard to argue the facts when you care about the facts just like it's not hard to ignore the facts when they don't suit you. Just saying the words, "Mr. Trump never lost", doesn't make it true thank God. No really! Thank god. There aren't just different levels and classes of ebikes graded by wattage and speed to be considered but also different uses and applications. Most people "here" go cheap and then argue to support their (limited) choice of ebikes after their purchase, maybe to make themselves feel better... IDK. Like some kid trying to defending his mom's off-brand Pop-tart purchase to his friends at lunch. "No really, they're just as good!" <gag, cough> I don't make those mistakes... I researched the pros and cons, asked tons of questions of riders with real experience, looking at every production ebike manufactured then I built an ebike that can do a spin around the block on the throttle, ride 100 miles with 400+ lbs. of gear and rider, do 40 mph whenever I feel stupid and invincible, and be easily self-maintained. The problems begin when others want to compare their $1000 Amazon wonders to the best all-around ebike I have seen to date. Or they focus on a single aspect of the bike they chose like fat tires. Fat tire ebikes can ride through and over surfaces that I can't. If you live next to the beach and don't care about destroying the bike a fat tire bike is the way to go. It's pretty easy to see the advantages of a mid-drive over a hub motor for Class-1 ebikes that are going to do more than ride around the block... if you want to.

Everyone stay safe.

 

[Pablo]

Maybe stated already but of course the strength and weakness of mid-drive - the strength being very tunable, changeable, adjustable - pick a word make the mid frame set up have more parts and naturally have more opportunity to fail. A hub unit is simpler to the average end user, but either toss or shop when the motor hub has serious issues.

You can fill in a whole ton of blanks above.....cost, DIY love, power to the ground, riding style and frequency, etc...........to help make a personal matrix as to the direction one might want to go.

 

[B Bassett]

You can fill in a whole ton of blanks above.....cost, DIY love, power to the ground, riding style and frequency, etc...........to help make a personal matrix as to the direction one might want to go.

And some very easy choices when you want the best all-around ebike. If you want fast you don't pick a fat tire bike. If you want control and comfort you don't choose an unsuspended frame. If you want to carry panniers it's best not to use bolt-on racks. If you want to ride anywhere a bike can ride you don't pick a 3-wheeler. If you want a pack mule to carry gear for touring you don't start with a hub motor. When you want the Jack-of-all-trades you have to think of every aspect of the bike, not just the motor.

p.s. I'm not a great fan of DIY except where it's necessary to keep the bike operational in the middle of BFE. I would love to have someone that could maintain my bike for me. Drop it off and pick it up all shiny, clean, and ready for the next 6K miles... just get on and ride. At this point, I have 3 different gentlemen that all specialize in aspects that have kept me rolling on my ebike for over 5 years now, and none of them are local. For most riders as with anything, it comes down to cost. It's so simple... find your perfect bike, hang a mid-drive, and get the largest battery the bike can carry. It's so simple.

Stay safe.

 

[B Bassett]

The video below gives me hope that ebikes will be moving to a new generation of motor soon. Ariel flux motors will provide more torque, weigh less, and hopefully cutting power consumption. They should be able to be used in both mid-drives and in geared hub motors. Cut the weight of an amp hour of battery storage in half, cut the weight of the motor, and 100-mile ebikes will be commonplace. Thankfully, we'll still be able to argue the limitations of hub motors... there will be less to argue about but hub-motors can never get away from being unsprung weight.

()

 

[B Bassett]

As stated somewhere in here mid-drive ebikes are easier to pull the rear wheel. Mines not exactly "easy"... but it doesn't take tools to pull the wheel.

Rear tube replacement - https://photos.app.goo.gl/7BwWQtFgEc6enDRF7

 

[Frogslayer]

I find my rear wheel removal on my hub drive bike only one zip tie more involved than a regular rear mountain bike wheel. It's only 1 wire harness inside one sheath so it's like 1 wire coming out of the axle on the non chain side. The most hassle is the regular chain and derailleur. My gas bike with 2 drive chains is a little more tricky but not terrible. I don't use qr axles on anything that a living organism rides on though.

 

[B Bassett]

The most hassle is the regular chain and derailleur.

Fully understand... a chain tensioner is a pain, at least I only have a single gear to deal with.

 

[slickdude]

Depends on the majority of the riding type you do. If you are mainly off-road and trails that don't require steep rides, then rear drive hub motor works fine. For Mid Drive that would apply mainly to trail and uphill, but works well on the road too. The BBSHD can be hot rodded to about 1500watts and is a monster plus gearing allows it to go wickedly fast especially on flat surfaces.

For mainly street riding, I'd recommend a front hub kit and steel forks to handle the torque as well. A front hub motor will be perfect for most low hills and especially for any road trips or level dirt path riding. What happens I have found with my 28,000+ miles of riding for almost a decade now on all types is that a front hub begins skipping as it pulls you up a dirt hill or trail. It still works but it doesn't hold the traction of a Mid Drive or a rear hub motor as a pusher.

By the way, I recommend you get at least a 1500watt and 60volt system if you can hack it. For daily commutes on just level or fairly level roads, a 36volt 350watt works well.

It's always nice to have extra power and most folks with bigger motors usually cruise around 22MPH anyhow. They go fast the first few times they buy big, and then ride at slower speeds.

 

[B Bassett]

Depends on the majority of the riding type you do. (Or you can just build a bike that can hadle the most arduious types of riding you will ever do. It's better to have more capability than you need rather than less. Note: The Class of ebike will make big differences.) If you are mainly off-road and trails that don't require steep rides, then rear drive hub motor works fine. (I totally disagree. If you are going to be riding single-track and multi surfaces a mid-drive is the best option regardless of inclines.) For Mid Drive that would apply mainly to trail and uphill, but works well on the road too. The BBSHD can be hot rodded to about 1500watts and is a monster plus gearing allows it to go wickedly fast especially on flat surfaces. (Why would you want to over-power a BBSHD? I hit speeds up to 40+ mph with a BBSHD and have never used power levels 8 or 9 yet. That's 0-9 different levels of assist.)

For mainly street riding, I'd recommend a front hub kit... (I never recommend hub motors, but they are a good way to have an inexpensive low-end ebike, which is fine for many riders.)

By the way, I recommend you get at least a 1500watt and 60volt system if you can hack it. For daily commutes on just level or fairly level roads, a 36volt 350watt works well. (I recomend a BBSHD or BBS02 and the largest 58.8V battery the frame can carry... plug and play, easy to find, and about 1/2 the cost of production ebike propriatary batteries.)

It's always nice to have extra power and most folks with bigger motors usually cruise around 22MPH anyhow. They go fast the first few times they buy big, and then ride at slower speeds. (I've never ridden anywhere that someone can hang with me for more than a few minutes... usually what happens is that I ride up on them and they start riding faster, then faster, until they are putting everything they have into it, the assist at full power with me casually riding along side with my butt on the seat eating pistashios, one hand on the bars, and pulling a loaded tralier. And yes, I can cruise at up to 33 mph on a flat hard surface only on throttle but I can't do that for 75 miles, and range is whats most important to me.)

One of the reasons I didn't want a hub motor is that for me it wastes a spot on the bike that can be used in a better or at least different manner. If you haven't ever ridden a bike with a Rohloff Speedhub it's hard to understand the difference they make in bike riding, and pairing them with a mid-drive brings out the best in both. So a rear hub motor is a non-starter. Mounting a hub motor in the front wheel means I can't use a dynamo hub which lets me double or triple the miles I can ride without an additional power source. I have thought about mounting a hub motor in my trailer wheel not to use for propulsion but to assist in braking and regen ability. If you take two similar bikes one with a hub motor and one with a mid-drive of the same wattage the bike with the hub won't be able to follow the mid-drive and will have a higher failure rate. Plus, even if the motors were to weigh the same, which they don't... hub motors of similar wattage weigh more than mid-drives, I'd much rather have that weight suspended at the BB than on the front or rear of the bike. The only two advantages for a hub drive that I have been able to think of are that if you have a catastrophic failure in the drive train that you aren't prepared for you could possibly still limp home. Say the chain brakes and you can't repair it, or a peddle snap off... or you get shot in the leg in a bank robbery attempt and can't peddle. The other advantage is that they are less expensive. If you are the kind of person that buys the least expensive set of tires for your car that you can find... then a hub motor is probably going to be your choice. Stay safe.

 

[gasbikingla]

I've had a hub drive ebike and liked it but never a mid drive. From reading you can use your gearing with a mid drive. That is a great feature for hills and speed. Only minus is a lot of wear on your chain and rear sprockets, maybe front too. What say you, your preferences and why? This thread might influence my next ebike purchase. Also any input on good mid drive brands/bikes that don't cost $5000.

Bafang. BBSHD. The best thing you can do to a bicycle! There is no hill too steep for it to climb with ease. I put 6,000 miles on mine before it was stolen. Mine had top speed of around 42mph and would beet any gasbike I've had off the line with ease. You almost have to be careful not pop the front wheel up and over you depending on how you have it dialed in. Which is another awesome thing about the Bafang, with simple to use program to have as much or little power you want. I built one on a Surly frame for a friend of mine and he sometimes takes it to San Francisco to do Uber eats and doordash deliveries where it has never let him down having to get off and push it up hills. You definitely have to do that on some of the hills in SF if you're on a hub drive bike. In 6,000 miles I put two or three chains and cassettes on mine, mostly because I was experimenting with some cheap Chinese knock off stuff. Once I put some decent Shimano stuff on it, it was fine. It's really fun being able to fly going up hills. Definitely try the Bafang. My parts came to a little over $1,600 from bafangusadirect.com. The battery alone was about $750 with shipping shipping. It was a big battery though. I ride that bike from Venice Beach to Ventura beach and still had almost 80% battery left when I got there. I pedaled it some of course. Not pedaling at all I could go from downtown LA to Venice Beach, ride around there some and then back home cruising about 30 to 35 mph the whole way and that would pretty much eat the battery up. If you need any more info you can hit me up at gasbikingla@gmail.com. I don't get on this forum so often.